Yet Another RO + Water Remineralization Setup Question - Page 2

Water analysis, treatment, and mineral recipes for optimum taste and equipment health.
Ciaran
Posts: 98
Joined: 6 years ago

#11: Post by Ciaran »

homeburrero wrote:
That bestmin is frustratingly poorly specified. The datasheet was written by the marketing and not the engineering department and has no clue as to what remineralization media is in there. (it just says "an ingenious combination of natural minerals and carbon fleece". Sheesh.) But it's good that it says 'natural minerals' and is marketed toward coffee makers rather than alkaline drinking water folks.
It's Magnesium Oxide/Corosex. I've had one and it will overcorrect the pH dramatically. The first litre of water out in the morning is like 480ppm (starting from 3ppm). At normal flowrates and zero bypass it was outputting around 80ppm.

finer.coffee (original poster)
Posts: 10
Joined: 4 years ago

#12: Post by finer.coffee (original poster) »

I got a response from Reiner @ BWT:
There isn't anything wrong with the cartridge. Actually there is no blending function with our BWT bestmin premium thus no impact from filter head setting. Your measures for TDS, hardness and alkalinity are in the range what you would expect past an RO in combination with our bestmin premium filter system.

The pH is always alkaline after the bestmin due to the dolomite dissolution. The lower the consumption, the higher is the pH due to more stagnation in the cartridge. A high daily consumption will help to decrease the pH with less stagnation. If the RO is producing into a pressure tank
being triggered by a pressure switch this will also contribute to decrease the pH with longer production times and mixing inside the tank.

I hope this is of help and explains.

Thank you.


Reiner Stanelle
I think I'll be returning the BWT system..

Ciaran
Posts: 98
Joined: 6 years ago

#13: Post by Ciaran »

finer.coffee wrote:
So I guess my situation is more like this:

- TDS ~ 45ppm
- Total Hardness ~40ppm
- Total Alkalinity ~ 40ppm
- PH ~9.3



Really appreciate your knowledge!
Your TDS is at least 80ppm based on the above. Total Hardness of 40 + Alkalinity 40 = 80. TDS is the sum of the dissolved solid analytes. That's what the "Total" in TDS stands for.

User avatar
homeburrero
Team HB
Posts: 4886
Joined: 13 years ago

#14: Post by homeburrero »

finer.coffee wrote:- TDS ~ 45ppm
- Total Hardness ~40ppm
- Total Alkalinity ~ 40ppm
- PH ~9.3

This seems a bit high on the PH scale, no? I don't think it matters, but the incoming water main is at about 7.5 on the PH scale.
Yes. That's up where you see special 'alkaline' filters that promise a high pH. It made me think that they must be using a lot of MgO (typically Corosex, as Ciaran says). The pH is well above what you usually see for coffee water recommendations that specify 8.0 or 8.5 as a max pH. But I don't think it's a huge concern here. It may cause a scaling issue, but if most of that hardness is magnesium, probably not. High pH would make it more corrosive in low alkalinity high chloride water, but you look OK there. I don't expect the pH here, of itself will kill the taste. The things to watch, tastewise, are alkalinity and titrateable acidity, not so much pH. But ...
finer.coffee wrote:I think I'll be returning the BWT system..
I think I'd do the same.

... The pH is always alkaline after the bestmin due to the dolomite dissolution.
... Reiner Stanelle
That's very interesting. And surprising -- I would not expect dolomite, CaMg(CO₃)₂ to cause that high a pH. MgO causes unusual high pH because, although it eventually dissolves to the same magnesium carbonate that the dolomite does, it neutralizes two extra equivalents of acidity in getting there. But I think Mr Stanelle should know, and it may be interesting to ask him if they don't have some form of magnesium oxide in that filter. **


P.S.
Ciaran wrote:Your TDS is at least 80ppm based on the above. Total Hardness of 40 + Alkalinity 40 = 80. TDS is the sum of the dissolved solid analytes. That's what the "Total" in TDS stands for.
Disagree with that -- a TDS of 45 looks about right here. Note that the total hardness and the total alkalinity are both expressions of the same magnesium/calcium carbonates, so you don't want to count them twice. To illustrate, if you dissolve 10 mg of calcium carbonate in 1 liter, your hardness is 10 mg/L and your alkalinity is 10 mg/L. Your TDS is close to 10 mg/L, not 20 mg/L. (10 mg of CaCO3 dissolves to 12 mg of HCO3⁻ and 4.0 mg of Ca⁺⁺ ion, and if dried to a residue leaves 10 mg CaCO3.)




**[Edit addition] Since posting I've run across some discussion of 'calcined dolomite' as a water treatment media:
(https://journals.matheo.si/index.php/AC ... e/1590/739 ).
If BWT is using something like this, then it would contain MgO and CaO and would tend to produce a high pH correction.
Pat
nínádiishʼnahgo gohwééh náshdlį́į́h

rrahman
Posts: 27
Joined: 4 years ago

#15: Post by rrahman »

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote: No kidding $2000 and you still have to worry about if it works. I'll say it again, if you are worried about your water, start with RO and make it yourself.
It takes 5 min, plus maybe 30 min maintenance once a year. So depending on the tank size you have, that 5 min could be once a month or once a every three months.

RO>holding tank>what ever system you have to feed the machine. You can measure the flow from the RO to the holding tank and then adjust your chemical stocks.

You have complete control over alkalinity and hardness that way including type of mineral. AND you have repeatability and you DON'T worry about if your remineralization is working. AND the time you spent worrying will be more than the time you spend with the water recipe.

With all due respect and no offense, you might consider returning thet Optipure. You won't likely have piece of mind and you won't have any time savings. My comments are strictly feedback, not intended as right or wrong, good or bad, just some information to consider.
Thanks for your advice. I was strongly considering making my own water and still am if this Optipure system does end up being a headache.

The Optipure system is quite a bit cheaper than the $2000 list price. Operating costs are ~150$/year and 1500$ upfront depending on usage I had to speak with the dealer over the phone to give me the discount. I had another challenge in treating my own RO water in that there is a substantial space limitation preventing multiple or large tanks underneath my countertop. That being said I'd still like to hear your process.

If I understand you correctly, you use an RO system to feed water into a holding tank which you then add your minerals into, and then have that go to another reservoir which your Slayer machine pulls from, correct? If so, I would worry about whether my mineral content was 100% dissolved into the RO water or my RO flow meter inaccurately measured the flow into the tank. Also with multiple tanks of post RO water, I suppose I would also worry about increased contamination risk. Lastly maintaining an RO system has its own headaches which I'm prepared for and the Optipure system has those as well.

On the surface it sounds like more maintenance than the Optipure system to me, but maybe you can elaborate more on your process.

User avatar
CarefreeBuzzBuzz
Posts: 3872
Joined: 7 years ago

#16: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

Razi,
If I understand you correctly, you use an RO system to feed water into a holding tank which you then add your minerals into, and then have that go to another reservoir which your Slayer machine pulls from, correct?
In my case, we are starting with distilled water now as we moved the espresso machine into another room on a cart. Principle is the same.

If so, I would worry about whether my mineral content was 100% dissolved into the RO water or my RO flow meter inaccurately measured the flow into the tank.
No worry on dissolving. You make water "stock" with 1000ml containers. So you pour water with minerals that has had plenty of time to dissolve, into your RO water. Yeah an accurate flow meter would be needed. One possibility is this one, but I can't vouch for it. That said Pat has said many times here that you don't need extreme precision when adding the stock. You could do a reset once a year.
Also with multiple tanks of post RO water, I suppose I would also worry about increased contamination risk.
Same as maintaining the RO system I suppose. An annual flush and cleaning is a good idea.

If your space is limited then that is an issue. We had the same problem in the kitchen and my wife is a pastry chef so I decided to free up all her workspace and move the machine to a cart in another room we affectionately call the Saloon. So another liquid there made sense.

Good luck whatever your decision. Just don't expect miracles from the Optipure in terms of hardness. That depends on the age of that filter and how long the water has been soaking the minerals.
Artisan.Plus User-
Artisan Quick Start Guide
http://bit.ly/ArtisanQuickStart

carmelscene
Posts: 15
Joined: 4 years ago

#17: Post by carmelscene »

I too would like an easier solution and have found the same challenges with a water solution. I have an RO system but would like to add an additional remineralization filter. Current TDS is 25. Any recommendations? I live in Vegas so if anyone on here is familiar my ro system is with h2o to go.

Fluffeepuff
Posts: 251
Joined: 10 years ago

#18: Post by Fluffeepuff »

I've actually continued to struggle on remineralizing my 7-stage RO system... I use iSpring alkaline filters https://www.123filter.com/ac/ispring-fa ... 19_104_100. This weekend, I'm going to try linking two new filters serially to see if I can get past 30-35ppm TDS (currently around 20-25ppm since the catridge is almost spent) and observe if it improves the taste of my coffee.

With this setup, the alkaline filters sits after the RO water tank in the line.

I'm going to look into Optipure when we move next year as a possible solution for the house we move into if it doesn't already have robust filtration.

I want to stay plumbed for my setup; I recently tried both Crystal Geyser (can't remember the California spring) and Evian in my DE1PRO, and preferred the Evian for the couple shots I made taste-wise.

Ciaran
Posts: 98
Joined: 6 years ago

#19: Post by Ciaran »

homeburrero wrote:Yes. That's up where you see special 'alkaline' filters that promise a high pH. It made me think that they must be using a lot of MgO (typically Corosex, as Ciaran says). The pH is well above what you usually see for coffee water recommendations that specify 8.0 or 8.5 as a max pH. But I don't think it's a huge concern here. It may cause a scaling issue, but if most of that hardness is magnesium, probably not. High pH would make it more corrosive in low alkalinity high chloride water, but you look OK there. I don't expect the pH here, of itself will kill the taste. The things to watch, tastewise, are alkalinity and titrateable acidity, not so much pH. But ... I think I'd do the same.


That's very interesting. And surprising -- I would not expect dolomite, CaMg(CO₃)₂ to cause that high a pH. MgO causes unusual high pH because, although it eventually dissolves to the same magnesium carbonate that the dolomite does, it neutralizes two extra equivalents of acidity in getting there. But I think Mr Stanelle should know, and it may be interesting to ask him if they don't have some form of magnesium oxide in that filter. **


P.S.
Disagree with that -- a TDS of 45 looks about right here. Note that the total hardness and the total alkalinity are both expressions of the same magnesium/calcium carbonates, so you don't want to count them twice. To illustrate, if you dissolve 10 mg of calcium carbonate in 1 liter, your hardness is 10 mg/L and your alkalinity is 10 mg/L. Your TDS is close to 10 mg/L, not 20 mg/L. (10 mg of CaCO3 dissolves to 12 mg of HCO3⁻ and 4.0 mg of Ca⁺⁺ ion, and if dried to a residue leaves 10 mg CaCO3.)




**[Edit addition] Since posting I've run across some discussion of 'calcined dolomite' as a water treatment media:
(https://journals.matheo.si/index.php/AC ... e/1590/739 ).
If BWT is using something like this, then it would contain MgO and CaO and would tend to produce a high pH correction.
Pat - CaCO3 is used as unit of mass for more than just Calcium, Magnesium and Alkalinity. That doesn't mean every test result is an indication of the presence, or concentration of calcium carbonate.

dparrish
Supporter ♡
Posts: 219
Joined: 5 years ago

#20: Post by dparrish »

rrahman wrote: I have recently going through a similar struggle. I live in Austin with marginally too high chloride. After talking with several experts, I opted to stray away from Home Master Artesian. The Home Master techs I found to be polite, but overall left me unimpressed.

After consulting some of the bright minds, I opted for the OptiPure BWS 175. I am awaiting for its arrival and installation still, but I feel pretty confident in achieving an optimal water chemistry for my Linea Mini. The Optipure unit has a remineralization cartridge and a blending valve that allows alot more flexibility. I have a nearby water chemistry lab and plan to report results post RO and remin once I have the unit installed. Stay tuned...

There is a high upfront cost with the Optipure BWS175 and yearly maintenance is more costly, but based on my conversations its cheaper than it seems.
I look forward to your thoughts on how this system works for you. I am in a similar situation now. I live in the north Dallas area and am expecting the arrival of a new Linea Mini. I've been using a Homeland HCWS filter on my existing espresso plumb-in, but in preparing for the arrival of the new machine discovered the significance of high chloride levels, which my area water has in addition to high TDS and alkalinity. So LaMarzocco has advised me to go with a water softener plus RO followed by remineralization. I'm most concerned with the remineralization as well as getting a good level (not too low) of harness post RO. I've considered using the reservoir with treated water, but I've grown used to not having to fill the tank and I dislike the idea of using water that has been sitting in plastic, bpa or not.

There are less expensive systems, but I like quality and flexibility. Sure wish this wasn't so complicated.