Yet another "help me choose a water treatment" post

Water analysis, treatment, and mineral recipes for optimum taste and equipment health.
maxcr
Posts: 13
Joined: 12 years ago

#1: Post by maxcr »

Hi Everyone,

I have a used LM GS3 on it's way to me and I've been poring over these forums to try to figure out the right water treatment to provide the maximum protection to the machine while giving me the best cup possible (in that order). Also, I plan to plumb the machine.

Today I ran some tests with the LM kit and go the following:

Total Hardness: 20ppm
Total Iron: 0.25ppm
Free Chlorine: 0
Total Chlorine: 0
ph: 8
Alkalinity: 80ppm
Chloride: 43ppm

I didn't have a test to measure TDS, but from another post it seems my water supply should be around: 125ppm

Based on what I've read the thing to fix is the chloride, since the stainless steel boilers might not jive well with that. It seems that RO is the way to go, and also what the LM water calculator said: RO + particle filter.

My questions:
1) Do you have a recommendations on RO + particle filter that's tried and true here at HB? The seller suggested and I've read about the BWT Bestmax for the filter part, but not sure if that's what I need
2) Should I worry about the low hardness result? Do I need to remineralize my water? If so how do I do that?

Thanks
Max in Somerville, MA

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homeburrero
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#2: Post by homeburrero »

maxcr wrote:Based on what I've read the thing to fix is the chloride, since the stainless steel boilers might not jive well with that. It seems that RO is the way to go, and also what the LM water calculator said: RO + particle filter.

My questions:
1) Do you have a recommendations on RO + particle filter that's tried and true here at HB? The seller suggested and I've read about the BWT Bestmax for the filter part, but not sure if that's what I need
2) Should I worry about the low hardness result? Do I need to remineralize my water? If so how do I do that?
Looks like you are on MWRA water - Somerville is on the same water as metro Boston. If your numbers are from test strips they may not be very accurate, so it may be worthwhile back them up with a look at your water utility numbers, which have nice detail if you look at the monthly reports rather than the annual reports: https://www.mwra.com/monthly/wqupdate/qual3wq.htm

Your water is very low hardness, but the alkalinity is pretty good. Normally you expect alkalinity to be lower than hardness but in this case they treat the water with sodium carbonate, which increases the alkalinity and pH, making the water less corrosive, bumping up the alkalinity and the sodium content.

The monthly reports indicate that your water's alkalinity runs pretty consistently around 40 mg/L, which is good.

The chloride ion here is a potential issue. It's borderline high, running 25 mg/L to 35 mg/L in those monthly reports. Not nearly the killer 200 mg/L that they see in nearby Cambridge (which is on a very different water system) but still high enough to consider going to RO. Chloride is associated with pitting corrosion in stainless steel, and it's even worse for copper and brass corrosion. It's a judgement call, and I'd say that if you want to plumb in a valuable machine that you want to keep for many years, especially if it's vintage, then go to RO, which is the only practical way* to get rid of that chloride ion. One vendor (Synesso) advises using RO of the chloride is above 15 mg/L. The La Marzocco USA advice suggests RO at 30 mg/L. You would want a remineralizer cartridge after the RO. In this case a fancy system with a blending valve would not be needed -- the water's too soft and has too much chloride for blending to be worthwhile.

You certainly do NOT want a BWT bestmax here, or any other WAC resin decarbonizing filter. Your water does not need softening and you want to keep that alkalinity and pH high to mitigate the chloride corrosion risk. (decarbonizing filters reduce the alkalinity and tend to acidify the water.)

A good particulates + carbon block or charcoal filter will do the job here if you decide you can live with a little chloride risk and don't go with RO. You do have chloramine, so it may be worth getting one that is effective in chloramine reduction. I would not worry about the low hardness. Even if you stuck a remin cartridge in the water line it would not add much if any mineral because of the high pH of your tap water.

* I should mention that another option here for a plumbed in machine without using an RO system would be a carboy and flojet-like setup. You would use purified water with minerals added in a carboy. (see Espresso Cart - Goodbye Plumbed In )


P.S.
For convenience, I'll summarize some key numbers from the Dec 2021 report (for the Carroll treatment plant that serves Boston)
calcium hardness: 11.8 mg/L (as CaCO3)
total hardness: 14.5 mg/L (as CaCO3)
alkalinity: 40.3 mg/L (as CaCO3)
chloride ion: 28.8 mg/L
sulfate ion: 5.65 mg/L
sodium ion: 35 mg/L
ammonia: 0.5 mg/L
total chlorine: 3.3 mg/L
silica: 3.9 mg/L (as SiO2)
TDS: 116 mg/L
conductivity: 211 umho/cm (would read about 105 ppm on a typical inexpensive TDS meter.)
pH: 9.7
Pat
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maxcr (original poster)
Posts: 13
Joined: 12 years ago

#3: Post by maxcr (original poster) »

Thank you so much! This is exactly what I needed to know. I had seen an old screenshot of that report but couldn't find it for more recent years because I wasn't looking for the monthly! I'll got with the particulate and carbon filter - You're the best

Max

maxcr (original poster)
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Joined: 12 years ago

#4: Post by maxcr (original poster) »

In case it helps others, I got this filter on amazon:
  • Pentair Pentek ChlorPlus10 Carbon Water Filter, 10-Inch, Under Sink Chloramine Reduction Carbon Replacement Cartridge, 10" x 2.5", 1 Micron
I also got this Pentair Pentek 158643 3G Slim Line Filter Housing, 3/8" NPT #10 Under Sink Clear Water Filter Housing: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003J ... UTF8&psc=1 and the bracket and wrench to install it.

Finally, I got a Brass Lead-Free Adjustable Water Pressure Reducer with Gauge to ensure I have the right PSI into the machine.

I hope it works well and that it fits together. I liked that the filter will reduce the chloramine level and that it said: UNIQUE DESIGN REDUCES CARBON FINES in filtered water typically found in other granulated canisters - based on other threads this might be a good thing to avoid issues since I don't have other filtration stages.

Max

Rob101
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Joined: 2 years ago

#5: Post by Rob101 »

Help with BWT pitcher filter: I am using this pitcher filter. I first filter water through my LG filter fridge filter (which removes chlorine, lead, mercury, copper, etc) and I use this water to run through the BTW pitcher with magnesium mineralizer filter. The BTW filter removes calcium and adds magnesium. After running it through the BTW pitcher filter the water taste different, a little bitter, coming out of the BTW filter. I think that this added bitterness comes through the coffee as well. This filter is supposed to make the water taste better but I don't find that it does. Anyone have any thoughts? Is there a better filter I can use that reduces calcium and doesn't change alkalinity?

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homeburrero
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#6: Post by homeburrero »

Rob101 wrote:Anyone have any thoughts? Is there a better filter I can use that reduces calcium and doesn't change alkalinity?
The Bilt/Oscar/Rocket pouch filters are simple conventional softeners (SAC resin, exchange two Na+ ions for each Ca++ or Mg++ ion) They lower hardness and don't affect alkalinity or pH. They do need some contact time to be effective and can be used in a reservoir or dropped into a pitcher. (The BWT bestsave drop-in filter is different - uses a WAC resin similar to your BWT pitcher filter and does reduce alkalinity.)

Many of the reservoir and intake hose-end filters (Breville Claro-Swiss*, LeLit, Rancilio) are conventional SAC resin softeners.


* Edit addition: It's not clear what type of softener resin is in these Claro-Swiss filters. I've come across some evidence that it's not a sodium based resin, which may mean that it's a WAC resin (https://www.cnfilter.net/water-filter-c ... swiss.html)
Pat
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Rob101
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#7: Post by Rob101 »

Yes I understand that it needs like an entire day of contact. Water gets stale. How about the BRITA/Mavea MAXTRA filters? Anyone try those?

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Jessipoo
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#8: Post by Jessipoo »

Looked into BWT but it seems it converts some into magnesium and from what I know, both calcium and magnesium contribute to limescale so I'm not sure what this does, unless they contribute towards limescale when both are present only? Wanted this for my BDB instead of buying Intenza filters and having all that plastic and filters in the garbage, ouch.

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homeburrero
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#9: Post by homeburrero »

Rob101 wrote:How about the BRITA/Mavea MAXTRA filters? Anyone try those?
Most of them have some WAC ion exchange resins that will do some softening, but they are not intended for use where softening is needed. The Brita 'Longlast' is a special case - it has no ion exchange resin, which can be a good thing if you want to avoid the effects of WAC resins (which can reduce alkalinity and acidify the water.)

Jessipoo wrote:Looked into BWT but it seems it converts some into magnesium and from what I know, both calcium and magnesium contribute to limescale so I'm not sure what this does, unless they contribute towards limescale when both are present only?
The BWT bestmax premium does replace some calcium with magnesium, which should help reduce scale (limescale is calcium carbonate). Magnesium could produce magnesium carbonate and/or magnesium hydroxide deposits but not to the same degree as calcium. The usual LSI calculations to predict limescale are based on calcium hardness and carbonate/bicarbonate alkalinity,
Pat
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Jessipoo
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#10: Post by Jessipoo »

homeburrero wrote: The BWT bestmax premium does replace some calcium with magnesium, which should help reduce scale (limescale is calcium carbonate). Magnesium could produce magnesium carbonate and/or magnesium hydroxide deposits but not to the same degree as calcium. The usual LSI calculations to predict limescale are based on calcium hardness and carbonate/bicarbonate alkalinity,
Oh good to know!
So calcium is the more worrying one to pay attention to.
What about "Breville ClaroSwiss Replacement Water Filter" do you know if that works the same way? I'm unable to find any clear information on what it filters out for the "softening part", it only says softens the water.. but they give a few other chemicals they filter out, doesn't seem to be an extensive clear list out there.
I always thought water filters for coffee removed both Calcium and Magnesium.

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