Hi all,

I'm new here, I recently purchased a Lelit Biana after doing a lot of reading here as well as other sites. I'm loving the machine but I want to keep this big expense in the best condition possible.

My water is hard and I have the machine plumbed in, I was running a resin filter and some kind of carbon filter but they had very little info. I spoke to another supplier who recommended Claris Ultra which I ordered and installed today, but I'm still worried.

I got a cheap TDS meter and also a KH test kit
Tap water 324 TDS and KH 9
Claris Ultra 233 TDS and KH 4.5 set to bypass level 2

Assuming I measured right, because the results from my water board seem very different. I have pasted the results but the formatting is poor, I don't see and Alkalinity reading.

Am I worrying too much? Is bypass 2 setting OK? Thanks in Advance.

Water results

Analysis Typical Value UK/EU Limit Units
Hardness Level Hard No standard applies
Hardness Clark 15.43 No standard applies Degrees Clark
Hardness French 22.04 No standard applies French Degrees
Hardness German 12.34 No standard applies German Degrees
Data is for period 01-January-2018 to 31-December-2018
Water Quality Summary Report
For most analysis, results are from samples taken at random in the water quality zone of your area. In some cases, results are from samples taken from water treatment supply points feeding the zone.
Analysis Analysis Units No of Results Minimum Result Average Result Maximum Result No of results above PCV limit UK/EU Limit
1,2-Dichloroethane µg/l 79 <0.09 <0.09 <0.09 0 3
Aldrin µg/l 71 <0.001 <0.001 <0.001 0 0.03
Aluminium µg/l 40 <5 <7 16 0 200
Ammonium mg/l 40 <0.012 <0.014 0.022 0 0.5
Antimony µg/l 8 0.19 0.30 0.40 0 5
Arsenic µg/l 8 0.17 0.26 0.36 0 10
Benzene µg/l 79 <0.04 <0.04 <0.04 0 1
Benzo-3,4-Pyrene µg/l 8 <0.001 <0.001 <0.001 0 0.01
Boron mg/l 79 <0.012 <0.035 0.083 0 1
Bromate µg/l 8 <0.20 <0.50 1.50 0 10
Cadmium µg/l 8 <0.01 <0.04 0.11 0 5
Chloride mg/l 79 12.25 34.76 66.60 0 250
Chromium µg/l 8 <0.2 <0.3 0.7 0 50
Clostridium perfringens No. / 100ml 40 0 0 0 0 0
Coliform Bacteria No. / 100ml 168 0 0 0 0 0
Colony Count After 72 Hours at 22°C No. / 100ml 52 0 2 39 0 No abnormal change
Colour mg/l Pt/Co 52 <0.40 <1.01 2.08 0 20
Conductivity µS/cm at 20°C 40 351 524 607 0 2500
Copper mg/l 8 0.0026 0.0330 0.1662 0 2
Cyanide µg/l 79 <2 <2 <2 0 50
Dieldrin µg/l 71 <0.003 <0.003 <0.003 0 0.03
E. coli No. / 100ml 168 0 0 0 0 0
Enterococci No. / 100ml 8 0 0 0 0 0
Fluoride mg/l 8 0.32 0.73 0.97 0 1.5
Free Chlorine mg/l 168 0.05 0.30 0.62 0 No abnormal change
Heptachlor µg/l 71 <0.001 <0.001 <0.001 0 0.03
Heptachlor epoxide µg/l 71 0.000 0.000 0.000 0 0.03
Iron µg/l 52 <3 <11 51 0 200
Lead µg/l 8 <0.3 <0.4 0.7 0 10
Manganese µg/l 40 <0.2 <0.9 3.7 0 50
Mercury µg/l 79 <0.005 <0.017 0.022 0 1
Nickel µg/l 8 2.0 2.8 5.9 0 20
Nitrate mg/l 8 11.43 21.06 26.26 0 50
Nitrite mg/l 8 <0.004 <0.005 <0.006 0 0.5
Nitrite - Nitrate Calculated - 8 0.23 0.42 0.53 0 <1
Odour Dilution Number 52 0 0 0 0 Acceptable to Customer and no abnormal change
PAH µg/l 8 0.00 0.00 0.00 0 0.1
Pesticides Other µg/l 6106 <0.001 <0.004 0.047 0 0.1
pH pH value 40 7.03 7.17 7.48 0 Min 6.5, Max 9.5
Selenium µg/l 8 0.13 0.25 0.48 0 10
Sodium mg/l 8 23.4 30.4 35.7 0 200
Sulphate mg/l 79 26 68 116 0 250
Taste Dilution Number 52 0 0 0 0 Acceptable to Customer and no abnormal change
Tetrachloroethene and Trichloroethene µg/l 8 0.00 0.00 0.00 0 10
Tetrachloromethane µg/l 8 <0.06 <0.06 <0.06 0 3
Total Organic Carbon mg/l 79 <0.4 <1.9 4.2 0 No abnormal change
Total Pesticides µg/l 71 0.000 0.038 0.147 0 0.5
Total Trihalomethanes µg/l 8 34.95 50.05 61.93 0 100
Turbidity NTU 52 <0.06 <0.08 0.18 0 4

Too bad that report doesn't give you numbers for calcium and bicarbonate / alkalinity. But good that you've tested the KH.

So the key tap water numbers here might be:
total hardness: 22 french degrees = 220 mg/L as CaCO3
alkalinity (KH) 9 german degrees = 160 mg/L as CaCO3
Chloride ion: 12 mg/L - 67 mg/L (average = 35 mg/L)
Sulphate ion: 26 mg/L - 116 mg/L (average = 68 mg/L)

Your chloride is borderline, and that Claris Ultra filter will not reduce that. Per Claris' guidance* you are probably OK because your alkalinity is good and chloride is well below 80 mg/L.

Having said that, some manufacturers are very cautious about chloride and suggest RO if it's above 30 mg/L (La Marzocco) or above 15 mg/L (Synesso.)

I think that looks like a reasonable bypass setting, although your filtered water is probably at a GH:KH of around 140:80 and probably will produce some scale so you need to watch out for that. You could try a lower bypass setting to drop the hardness/alkalinity down to a more non-scaling level but I would not advise that if your KH goes to 3 or fewer German degrees - going that low will further acidify water out of the filter and not give you the alkalinity you want - it may exacerbate the chloride risk.

If you wanted to soften this water so that you can assume you'll never need to descale (and not go to a reverse osmosis system) I think you'd need a conventional softening filter (i.e., one that replaces calcium and magnesium with either sodium or potassium ions). That would leave you with very low hardness but all your alkalinity, and would not acidify the water, which would be good for alleviating corrosion risk from the chloride. A downside to that approach is that some might argue that the high 160 mg/L alkalinity might flatten or dull the taste.

* For Claris Everpure and stainless steel corrosion risks see /downloads/ ... pdated.pdf: "Claris (like other WAC products) is great for water with bicarbonate levels above 100 and low chloride and sulfate levels less than 80ppm and 150ppm respectively."

Thank you homeburrero for the very detailed reply.

Do you think I should run a softening filter as well as the Claris Ultra? Before or after it?

Before the Claris I was using this resin filter http://www.waterfilterman.co.uk/water-f ... e-1-4.html

Also this filter http://www.waterfilterman.co.uk/other-b ... 20983.html

There isn't much detail about them. I didn't measure much change in TDS or KH after these.

Nick1881 wrote:Do you think I should run a softening filter as well as the Claris Ultra? Before or after it?

I don't know anyone doing that, but it would be one way to end up with a safe but moderate alkalinity and a low enough hardness to put you into the never descale zone. If you did that you would want the conventional softener after the Claris filter. (The Claris filter exchanges calcium and magnesium for hydrogen ions, which are then buffered by bicarbonate ion and reduce the carbonate alkalinity. It needs those hardness ions to do its job.)

Nick1881 wrote:Before the Claris I was using this resin filter http://www.waterfilterman.co.uk/water-f ... e-1-4.html

Also this filter http://www.waterfilterman.co.uk/other-b ... 20983.html

There isn't much detail about them. I didn't measure much change in TDS or KH after these.

That makes sense - the first is a conventional softening filter that would reduce GH but keep KH and TDS the same. The second is a carbon filter that would not reduce GH, KH, nor TDS. The online info says nothing about the softening capacity of that first filter - but they may provide that in the filter instructions about when to replace.

I should reiterate that if you wanted to play it 100% safe with protecting that machine from possible chloride related corrosion you would go with a reverse osmosis system and a remineralizer. If I had your water and a very valuable vintage machine that's what I would do.

Thanks again for the detailed reply.

I spoke to the supplier of the Claris Ultra, they said they wouldn't normally recommend a softening filter after the Claris as it would put salt into the water, he said he would speak to the technical team and get back to me.

I will see what they come back with.

This is all so confusing for me, I'm just an electronics engineer lol.

The resin filter I have didn't come with any instructions about capacity, the supplier said 6 months.

Nick1881 wrote:I spoke to the supplier of the Claris Ultra, they said they wouldn't normally recommend a softening filter after the Claris as it would put salt into the water, he said he would speak to the technical team and get back to me.

It would, but I don't think that's an issue. If you had 140 mg/L of hardness coming out of the Claris , and then softened it way down to a non-scaling 20 mg/L of hardness, it would add 28 mg/L of sodium -- nothing to be concerned about in my opinion.

Thanks.

I ordered a General Hardness test kit which should come tomorrow, I will update with the results, then I may add my resin filter back in and measure everything again.

Ok I got another GH/KH test kit today.

GH results
Tap water took 14-15 drops, this is off the scale as 11 drops is 196.9 and 12 drops 214.8 which is as high as it goes.

Claris Ultra took 3 drops which is 53.7

HK with this kit
Tap water 8 drops which is 8dKH 143.2

Claris Ultra 5 drops which is 5dKH 89.5

Does this look pretty good? Should I adjust the bypass from setting 2?

Thanks

This looks pretty good to me. That Claris Ultra appears to be some sort of mixed bed decarbonizer (what the SCAE water handbook calls a buffered decarbonizer) with some conventional softening resin, and looks like it's doing a good job on your water. (Note that it dropped your alkalinity by about 50 mg/L but dropped total hardness much more - reduced by around 190 mg/L.)

I would leave the setting bypass at 2 where you have it. Going lower would reduce the alkalinity and lower the pH and you don't want that because of the chloride.

You should see somewhere between slight and no scaling - depends on the steam boiler temp and how much of that hardness is calcium vs magnesium.

Thanks homeburrero.

I'm really happy with the result and hope I won't have to descale often.

I will check the results every month or so to check the filter is still working. I also want to use it for my drinking water, hopefully it's better to drink that my tap water, I'm not sure if it will last a year though as I drink a lot of water. Next time I might go with a larger capacity filter.

Thanks again for your help and advice, really appreciated.