Water line supply >> water tank supply

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Emmanuel
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#1: Post by Emmanuel »

Hello,
I have a VFA Expres Elite 2 groups.

Does any VFA Expres machine owners or other espresso professional machine owners try to transit from water line supply to water tank supply?
Thank you by advance
Emmanuel

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homeburrero
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#2: Post by homeburrero »

If you haven't already, be sure to search this site for Flojet, or maybe better +Flojet +accumulator. You'll see a lot of information related to your question. Here's a good one to start: Flojet and Shurflo accumulator pressure settings and fittings

That one has some discussion re accumulator size that might apply to higher capacity multiple group machines like yours.
Pat
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Emmanuel (original poster)
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#3: Post by Emmanuel (original poster) »

Thank you for the answer.
Before going to flojet+accumulator, I was wondering if it was possible to connect my machine directly with a pipe to a water tank like for some Rocket machine.
I have a rotative pump on my machine and I was wondering if the inlet pressure (~0 for a water tank VS ~3bars for water line) was a problem for the safety of the pump...?? The pump will have to work more to reach 9bars with ~0bar at the inlet but is it a problem for this kind of pump?
Is there other restrictions/problem to go this way?
by advance thank you
Emmanuel

Marcelnl
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#4: Post by Marcelnl »

unless you go mobile with your machine I'd investigate using another rotary pump to fill your boiler. A rotary pump plus motor is usually significantly cheaper than a Flojet and less plasticky...

I would imagine that your rotary pump used to create brew pressure in the group head sits between the boiler and the group head, you need water pressure to fill the boiler. Your existing rotary pump would have to draw negative pressure to fill the boiler which it most likely cannot due to the presence of vapor in the boiler. So you need an external pump to fill your boiler.
I'm manually filling my boiler with an external rotary pump that I connect and disconnect each time, works like a charm, the rotary pump has a pressure regulator you could use to decrease output pressure (max pressure of the pump varies per type, the pump I'm using is capable of 9 Bar).
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Jake_G
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#5: Post by Jake_G »

Marcelnl wrote:unless you go mobile with your machine I'd investigate using another rotary pump to fill your boiler. A rotary pump plus motor is usually significantly cheaper than a Flojet and less plasticky...
I'm always confused by this suggestion. Why use a rotary pump to feed a rotary pump? What makes the new rotary pump any more qualified to run off a reservoir than the one in the machine? What makes the one in the machine any less qualified to run off a reservoir than the new one? If you are going to put a pump outside of the machine, just move the existing pump...
I would imagine that your rotary pump used to create brew pressure in the group head sits between the boiler and the group head, you need water pressure to fill the boiler. Your existing rotary pump would have to draw negative pressure to fill the boiler which it most likely cannot due to the presence of vapor in the boiler. So you need an external pump to fill your boiler.
I'm manually filling my boiler with an external rotary pump that I connect and disconnect each time, works like a charm, the rotary pump has a pressure regulator you could use to decrease output pressure (max pressure of the pump varies per type, the pump I'm using is capable of 9 Bar).
I've never seen a pump machine setup in this fashion. Rotary pumps (and pumps in general) do not like pumping hot water. I would be very surprised if the boiler were not filled by the pump on this machine. Paul Pratt has the true solution and answer to the OP's question in this post in a prior topic:
Paul_Pratt wrote: Bottle on the floor or in a cupboard, up to a machine on a counter with 100-200cm of hose? no problem. I do this all the time and have done so for 20 years.

The only problem that can occur is if you run the pump dry which can usually be detected within a nano second by the change in noise. To reprime the pump you need to pour water down the tube up to the pump itself and then put back in a bottle.

If you wanted to really play safe, on the end of the hose that goes into your water bottle you have a check valve that prevents water dripping out when you lift the hose out, and (if the GS3 doesn't already have it), put in that filter fitting in the pump itself at the inlet side.

New pumps are only $100 or so :D
I ran my commercial machine off a 2 gallon carboy for months before I finally got out cafe area set up. Zero issues other than draining into a 5 gallon bucket, which was annoying to empty.

Cheers!

- Jake
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Marcelnl
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#6: Post by Marcelnl »

I'll gladly defer to those with experience on a non lever machine. The setup I described works like a charm on my Urania, admittedly it is lacking a rotary pump for brew pressure :D
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Emmanuel (original poster)
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#7: Post by Emmanuel (original poster) »

Thank you for all the responses!
So from the experience ok Jake, it seems possible to go from water line supply >> water tank...
>>just plunge the inlet tube of the rotary pump into a water tank. The water tank can be disposed under or above the coffee machine. that's all ... correct??
Can all the coffee machine with rotary pump do that? If not >> why (rotary pump work too hard to give 9bar when start from 0bar and therefore are rapidly damaged?? rotary pump can not start without a minimum inlet pressure ??...) ???
I know that Some rocket machine are constructed with the 2 options : water tank or water line. It seems that going from one option to the other one is as simple as described by Jake. But could we generalize to the other coffee machine shaped with rotary pump (except lever coffee machine)??
In my coffee machine I found the nameplate where it is specified that the inlet pressure should be between 2 to 5bar >> Jake (or other) when you used water tank supply on coffee machine instead of water line supply, have you done it on coffee machine with same kind of inlet water pressure prescription on the nameplate ?
Thank you by advance
Emmanuel

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Jake_G
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#8: Post by Jake_G »

Emmanuel wrote:just plunge the inlet tube of the rotary pump into a water tank. The water tank can be disposed under or above the coffee machine. that's all ... correct??
Yes. I prefer under or next to the machine for convenience reasons and so the tank can't empty itself onto my machine from above.
Emmanuel wrote: Can all the coffee machine with rotary pump do that? If not >> why (rotary pump work too hard to give 9bar when start from 0bar and therefore are rapidly damaged?? rotary pump can not start without a minimum inlet pressure ??...) ???
This gets tricky...

The concern with a choked water supply on the inlet of any pump is cavitation and starvation. Having a positive pressure supply with sufficient flow eliminates the risk of both, but in contrast, dropping a tube into an open top water tank does not cause either issue on its own. Running the tank dry can starve the pump and running the pump dry is bad for it because the water serves as the lubrication for the vanes inside the pump. So make sure you keep your water tank topped up to prevent starvation of the pump. Cavitation is harder to nail down, but the short answer is to run a 1/2" line that's no longer than it needs to be to reach the bucket that's no lower than it needs to be (like not in the basement, under a cabinet is fine) and don't restrict it's inlet with anything other than a free-flowing foot valve at the end to keep the pump primed and you should be fine. Also don't seal the top of your water tank. It needs to breathe. Cavitation is caused when the suction pressure at the inlet of the pump dips below the vapor pressure of the water and the water starts to boil. As long as you heed the advice above, this can't really happen under normal circumstances, but there is inherently more risk when bottle feeding than when plumbed to a pressurized and high-flowing supply.
Emmanuel wrote: I know that Some rocket machine are constructed with the 2 options : water tank or water line. It seems that going from one option to the other one is as simple as described by Jake. But could we generalize to the other coffee machine shaped with rotary pump (except lever coffee machine)??
In short, yes. Almost all the rotary pumps are essentially the same. Machines with internal tanks have open tops, short hoses and no restrictions on the lines, although you can get away with a softener on the end of the line in the tank.
Emmanuel wrote: In my coffee machine I found the nameplate where it is specified that the inlet pressure should be between 2 to 5bar >> Jake (or other) when you used water tank supply on coffee machine instead of water line supply, have you done it on coffee machine with same kind of inlet water pressure prescription on the nameplate ?
This is a pretty standard recommended pressure range and the manufacturer assumes all customers will plumb. If you plumb it, follow these guidelines. Reducing the supply pressure below 2 bar often restricts the available flow to the machine simply because of the design of most pressure regulators. You set them to say 1 bar with no flow, and since they have such a high pressure differential across them, the outlet pressure can begin dropping when the pump kicks on, which can lead to cavitation. There exist high flow, low pressure regulators that could provide a safe and low operating pressure but they are not what is typically available, so manufacturers stock with conservative guidelines.

Sorry for the long responses!

And Marcel, I hope you didn't take my first reply as an indictment on you in any way. You're far from the first person to suggest feeding a rotary pump driven machine with an external rotary pump. I meant no disrespect in my questioning of the idea! :P

Cheers!

- Jake
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Marcelnl
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#9: Post by Marcelnl »

No offense taken, I was not aware of where the pump sits in most non-levers.
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Emmanuel (original poster)
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#10: Post by Emmanuel (original poster) »

Thank you very much for the detailed response Jake.
>>I will try to run my machine with a water tank !
Thank you again
Emmanuel

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