Seeking water treatment suggestions and recommendations - Page 2

Water analysis, treatment, and mineral recipes for optimum taste and equipment health.
mythwyth

#11: Post by mythwyth »

For anyone who is scrolling in the future, this thread: RPavlis water formula and ZeroWater discusses ZeroWater filter's ability to remove chloride ions. TL;DR yes, ZeroWater also removes chloride and can be used as the base for RPavlis water recipe

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homeburrero
Team HB

#12: Post by homeburrero »

mythwyth wrote:For anyone who is scrolling in the future, this thread: RPavlis water formula and ZeroWater discusses ZeroWater filter's ability to remove chloride ions. TL;DR yes, ZeroWater also removes chloride and can be used as the base for RPavlis water recipe
+1. Zerowater removes all ions, giving you essentially de-ionized water at near zero ppm. They give you a TDS meter, and when it goes up to ~ 6 ppm it's time to replace your filter. It's not cost-effective for high mineral water but for mythwyth's water it should be economical. You do want to remineralize the water for espresso machine use and the rpavlis recipe would be a very machine-healthy choice.

mythwyth wrote:I don't know what the trigger level is where universally it's agreed that the treatment of choice is RO. La marzocco says stay below 30, Synesso says below 15.
There really is no clear trigger level - - any chloride may be harmful. If your water is acidic or has low alkalinity then it's more harmful. Given your 29 - 49 mg/L chloride ion and your less than 40 mg/L alkalinity the prudent choice for a machine you want to keep for many years would be purified water (RO, distilled, de-ionized) that is mineralized. It is a borderline call though, and with your soft water you could get by with just a particulates + charcoal filtration system if you were plumbing in. For your water the LeLit softening filter is unnecessary, but would do no harm. You do want to replace it every 6 months. (The LeLit in-tank softener uses a conventional (SAC, sodium ion exchange) resin.)


One thing you do NOT want with this particular water is a decarbonizing softener (also called a WAC resin filter or a hydrogen ion exchange filter.) These resins reduce the alkalinity and tend to acidify the water, which can make the chloride corrosion risk more serious. Some examples of WAC resin filters are the BWT premium, BWT Bestsave, Everpure Claris, Mavea/Brita C/Quell. Most pitcher filters also contain some WAC resins and should be avoided in low-alkalinity high-chloride situations. The Brita 'Longlast' filter is a pitcher filter that contains no WAC resins.
mythwyth wrote:I And then either tww or rpavlis remineralization. Or potentially just adding back some of my tap water; diluted it might be a decent option.
I'd suggest rpavlis -- it's simpler and cheaper than TWW and it has zero potential problem ions (TWW has calcium, magnesium, sulfate, citrate, and is a tad low in bicarbonate). The rpavlis water is very popular with folks on this site: Poll: What DIY Water Recipes Do You Use for Espresso?
Blending in some tap is often a good idea, but not in your case because your chloride is as high or higher than your alkalinity. No way you can blend in a good 40 mg/L alkalinity without getting too much chloride.

CoffeeMac wrote:Ion exchange filters (like Everpure Claris) can remove it, but may result in making the water too acidic and cause corrosion in the machine.
None of the cation exchange softening filters, including WAC filters like the Claris, remove chloride ion. The WAC filters are not recommended when you have chloride in the water because they don't reduce the chloride and do reduce the alkalinity and acidify the water, and this may make chloride more of an issue.
Pat
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mythwyth

#13: Post by mythwyth »

Thank you so much for your detailed insights! ZeroWater pitcher and RPavlis formula for mineralization is exactly the decision I landed on after all my scrolling and reading. I'm feeling more confident with your agreement that this is a prudent approach to machine longevity.

I give credit to your countless other postings in response to others' water analysis queries for helping me figure this out. Seriously, your knowledge and ability to explain these chemistry concepts clearly is a unique skill set. The coffee and espresso community is lucky to have you, Pat. Cheers!

caeffe (original poster)

#14: Post by caeffe (original poster) »

homeburrero wrote:+1. Zerowater removes all ions, giving you essentially de-ionized water at near zero ppm. They give you a TDS meter, and when it goes up to ~ 6 ppm it's time to replace your filter. It's not cost-effective for high mineral water but for mythwyth's water it should be economical. You do want to remineralize the water for espresso machine use and the rpavlis recipe would be a very machine-healthy choice.


......

One thing you do NOT want with this particular water is a decarbonizing softener (also called a WAC resin filter or a hydrogen ion exchange filter.) These resins reduce the alkalinity and tend to acidify the water, which can make the chloride corrosion risk more serious. Some examples of WAC resin filters are the BWT premium, BWT Bestsave, Everpure Claris, Mavea/Brita C/Quell. Most pitcher filters also contain some WAC resins and should be avoided in low-alkalinity high-chloride situations. The Brita 'Longlast' filter is a pitcher filter that contains no WAC resins.

......

None of the cation exchange softening filters, including WAC filters like the Claris, remove chloride ion. The WAC filters are not recommended when you have chloride in the water because they don't reduce the chloride and do reduce the alkalinity and acidify the water, and this may make chloride more of an issue.
Learning that I need to do more research on Water Softening that is non-salt type: TAC and Citric Acid - any others?
For now, it seems for my machine/coffee drinking needs that use of Zerowater filtration may be just as good and RO may be not as economical.
How about Brita Longlast and Pur filters?

Can also do bottled water (distilled or Crystal Geyser) with reminalerization aka rpavlis formula for taste purposes.

Eventually, I may go to a cartridge type softener for point of use but I still want to investigate usage of something that will lessen the hardness of my water for the whole house.

OT - here locally, I always love getting the water at In-N-Out burgers! taste wise to me they're great and I wonder what they do in terms of water filtration :)
LMWDP #162

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homeburrero
Team HB

#15: Post by homeburrero »

caeffe wrote:Learning that I need to do more research on Water Softening that is non-salt type: TAC and Citric Acid - any others?
As far as I know, TAC is the only one that seems to be used by reputable filtration companies for use in steamers and coffee equipment -- The ScaleX2 filters from Pentair/Optipure are advertised for that purpose. Their spec sheets don't say much about what hardness levels they handle, and they would be difficult to evaluate on site because you can't just go by simple GH and KH titration tests to evaluate scale risk.

The citric acid approach is uncommon, and no question that it would reduce scale, lowering the bicarbonate alkalinity and the pH while converting calcium bicarbonate and calcium carbonate to more soluble calcium citrate. This is chemically equivalent to doing a mild, constant citric acid descaling. That sort of spooks me for use in an espresso machine, especially if you have a chloride corrosion risk.

There are other saltless treatment methods that purportedly reduce scale using electrical currents and magnetic fields, but I think those are in the snake-oil realm.

caeffe wrote:For now, it seems for my machine/coffee drinking needs that use of Zerowater filtration may be just as good and RO may be not as economical.
Be aware that your water has higher TDS than mytwyth's Worcester MA water, so you would be replacing those Zerowater filters twice or more as often. That might make de-ionized or RO from a grocery store dispenser or a water supplier a more economical choice for you. For your 260 ppm water you'd expect to get 15-20 gallons out of each filter, so your cost might be in the 90 cents per gallon ballpark.


caeffe wrote:How about Brita Longlast and Pur filters?
The Pur has some WAC resin, but not enough to reliably soften your water. The Longlast has no softening resin, which for some water is a good thing when you want to keep your alkalinity and pH up.
Pat
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Smo

#16: Post by Smo »

There is a feeling that the recipe RPavlis benefits the E61 group.
Less fat deposition and easier to wash.