Well, if your pH level is 7.5 that neutral so not corrosive at well. The TDS of 57 is also good, but there are other factors that could damage your machine's internal components (e.g, alkalinity)

@sshire: please update on how your numbers look like. Interested in grabbing this system too.

PS Although my install is far from as simple as yours: I would have to run (route) the water supply line around and through cupboards from the fridge to where my Profitec is: estimated 100+ linear feet. Profitec and fridge are at the opposite ends of each other. Alternatively, I can have a Plummer/handyman install a small water supply + sink to the little island where my setup is.

No_cureEspresso wrote:
PS Although my install is far from as simple as yours: ...Alternatively, I can have a Plummer/handyman install a small water supply + sink to the little island where my setup is. image

Or get a smaller version of this and never worry abou water quality and testing.

Espresso Cart - Goodbye Plumbed In

Thank you for that... I'll review your thread. Hoping that I can follow that...skimmed through it briefly. Looks like I have some homework (and $$) to dedicate on this.

But I really appreciate your input and assistance!!

Be Well!!!

No_cureEspresso wrote: So are these concentrates both safe for the machine and provide great tasting espresso?

The numbers they claim (30 - 60 ppm of çalcium and magnesium) look pretty good if true. That's the same that I was told a few years back when I tried to coax more information out of ThePerfectWater support team. They don't say what units they are using, but it almost has to be in units of CaCO3 equivalent. They say that the cartridge mineral is simply food grade crushed marble, and that, to my mind is good. They are getting higher numbers than you usually see with simple calcite, but that may be a matter of how they hook in the remin filter.* A mixture of crushed marble that includes some dolomite marble would give you magnesium carbonate in addition to calcium carbonate. When I asked about that they said something about proprietary blah blah. I don't think the support people knew. It's likely almost all calcium, and that's fine -- at these levels it will not give you scale problems.

sshire wrote:Going to run all water tests tomorrow. LM water test kit, TDS, pH, Hach Hardness test.

To test, I would recommend pulling a cup or two from the filter after sitting overnight and testing that, then purge 4 or 5 cups and test again. That would help show if you have large fluctuation related to flow/contact through the filter. (See Plumbed into an RO tank. Help! for an RO system that shows high numbers in the first flow of the day.)

Do a hardness or alkalinity test, or both. If it is a simple crushed marble filter you should come out with about the same number for total hardness (GH) as for total alkalinity (KH). And if it averages near the 40-50 mg/L ballpark for hardness and alkalinity that seems pretty near ideal for machine health as well as for taste.

omarbaha wrote:Really interested to see your #s.. I have the same RO system and I have only tested pH & TDS so far. My pH is about 7.56 and TDS is around 57 ppm.

Using a TDS meter to evaluate water has problems. But a TDS reading of 57 on an inexpensive NaCl calibrated TDS meter looks pretty good in this case. This system might give you 5 - 15 ppm of unidentified stuff coming through the RO membrane, so it looks like the cartridge may be adding 40 - 50 ppm to your TDS reading. In the case of calcium and magnesium carbonates, the conversion factor used in these inexpensive meters turns out to be a reasonable estimate for the hardness and alkalinity measure in ppm CaCO3 equivalents.

Some people say 150 ppm TDS is ideal for taste. Many, including me, would say ignore that, it's not that simple.

pH is hard to measure properly, and a pH of 7.5 is fine. The important measure for espresso machines is the alkalinity, which is related to pH and tells you how well the water neutralizes acids.



* For more details on that see their patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US7507334B1/en
This picture shows how they hook in the remin filter (item #4) and two check valves to maximize contact time with the filter:


Edit addition: That remin filter at #4 is a combination calcite (crushed marble) and carbon finishing filter.

I think if you are going to run a 100 foot line, any installer is going to want you to also have a supplemental pump like an Aquatec at the RO system as well, so you would have a choice of pumping your water you make or the remineralized RO.

Appears that one can retrofit their current R.O. unit or a less expensive R.O. unit with a remineralizing filter and a few T and check valves. Watts water makes a quarter turn N.S.F. approved R.O. system with permeate pump for less for example.

homeburrero wrote:The numbers they claim (30 - 60 ppm of çalcium and magnesium) look pretty good if true. That's the same that I was told a few years back when I tried to coax more information out of ThePerfectWater support team. They don't say what units they are using, but it almost has to be in units of CaCO3 equivalent. They say that the cartridge mineral is simply food grade crushed marble, and that, to my mind is good. They are getting higher numbers than you usually see with simple calcite, but that may be a matter of how they hook in the remin filter.* A mixture of crushed marble that includes some dolomite marble would give you magnesium carbonate in addition to calcium carbonate. When I asked about that they said something about proprietary blah blah. I don't think the support people knew. It's likely almost all calcium, and that's fine -- at these levels it will not give you scale problems.

To test, I would recommend pulling a cup or two from the filter after sitting overnight and testing that, then purge 4 or 5 cups and test again. That would help show if you have large fluctuation related to flow/contact through the filter. (See Plumbed into an RO tank. Help! for an RO system that shows high numbers in the first flow of the day.)

Do a hardness or alkalinity test, or both. If it is a simple crushed marble filter you should come out with about the same number for total hardness (GH) as for total alkalinity (KH). And if it averages near the 40-50 mg/L ballpark for hardness and alkalinity that seems pretty near ideal for machine health as well as for taste.


Using a TDS meter to evaluate water has problems. But a TDS reading of 57 on an inexpensive NaCl calibrated TDS meter looks pretty good in this case. This system might give you 5 - 15 ppm of unidentified stuff coming through the RO membrane, so it looks like the cartridge may be adding 40 - 50 ppm to your TDS reading. In the case of calcium and magnesium carbonates, the conversion factor used in these inexpensive meters turns out to be a reasonable estimate for the hardness and alkalinity measure in ppm CaCO3 equivalents.

Some people say 150 ppm TDS is ideal for taste. Many, including me, would say ignore that, it's not that simple.

pH is hard to measure properly, and a pH of 7.5 is fine. The important measure for espresso machines is the alkalinity, which is related to pH and tells you how well the water neutralizes acids.



* For more details on that see their patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/US7507334B1/en
This picture shows how they hook in the remin filter (item #4) and two check valves to maximize contact time with the filter:
image

Edit addition: That remin filter at #4 is a combination calcite (crushed marble) and carbon finishing filter.

Great info ..I should also add that I did a conductivity test that came out to around 145 µS/cm. Im assuming this has nothing to do with alkalinity?

After about a week with the HomeMaster Full Contact Artisian plumbed in, I've finally gotten my water testing stuff in house.
Here's what I got
TDS - HM digitaltester
pH - Apera Instruments model pH20 digital
Total Hardness - Hach 5B Hardness Test Kit
Chloride - Hanna Instruments HI3815 Chloride Test Kit (Mercuric Nitrate Titration) - I got this because the test strips have too broad a range at the low end
Total Chlorine, Free Chlorine, Total Alkalinity - Hach Test Strips

Yeah, probably overkill but...

Pre-R/O R/O
TDS 460 21
Total Hardness 291 17
Chloride 150 4

No Pre-R/O testing on the following numbers but R/O numbers are
Total Iron, Free Chlorine and Total Chlorine are all 0 (zero)
pH is now 7.3
Alkalinity is now 40

My concern is the low TDS and total hardness numbers. According to LaMarzocco:

"TDS lower than 75ppm:
Effects on espresso: weak body, tart taste.
Effects on equipment: water becomes aggressive against espresso equipment's materials and speed up corrosion phenomenon caused by other additional factors.

Total Hardness lower than 90ppm:
Effects on espresso: flat body, low aromatics, little or no crema, unpleasant acidity.
Effects on equipment: water becomes aggressive and may cause/speed up corrosion in combination with other additional factors."

Home Master tech support has been first-rate. Phone answered immediately and email responses with a few hours.
I'm going to call tomorrow to see what can be done to raise the TDS and hardness. Since the system has a remineralizer, I'll report on what they suggest.
Anyone have any ideas?

Your usage would be good to know relative to the numbers. Guessing water first thing in the am that has had more reminerlization time might be higher. But it will vary for sure during the day and by usage.

Thanks so much Stan for testing and reporting back. This is very informative, and I think so far looks like a good system for your water. (That high chloride is killer -- you do need either RO or to make water from purified.)

Some comments/questions

sshire wrote:Alkalinity is now 40

Did you test that with a strip? Did you also test the hardness with the Hach 5B after remin? (hardness and alkalinity after remin here should be about the same.) You can double the precision of that 5B kit by using a double sample. Put two of the measuring tubes of water in the sample bottle, then add two tiny measuring spoons of the Univer indicator, then start adding your drops of titrant. Done this way, each drop of titrant corresponds to a half gpg of hardness (about 8.5 mg/L total hardness as CaCO3)

Also, have you looked into the difference in minerals by measuring a small sample first thing in the morning, vs a sample that is typical after the system has had at least a few cups of water run through recently? For that test your TDS meter will do a fine job as long as you assure you always test at the same water temperature, no need to get out the other tests.

If you are getting average hardness and alkalinity in the 40 mg/L range from this thing I think it's serving you nicely.

sshire wrote:My concern is the low TDS and total hardness numbers. According to LaMarzocco ....

I would say don't pay much attention to that particular LM advice. The La Marzocco USA water folks are commendable, especially in how they identified chloride early on as an important corrosion concern, but some La Marzocco advice is inconsistent and tends to favor hard, even scale-prone water. The advice you quoted seems geared to untreated water rather than reformulated pure water. Note that it suggests that water should have hardness above 90 ppm. That's an unusually high number to use as a recommended minimum (See this chart for some context: Good references on water treatment for coffee/espresso )

I think in the old days they believed in 'protective scale' and this would likely give you plenty of that, requiring periodic descaling. Note that bit that says: "...water becomes aggressive and may cause/speed up corrosion in combination with other additional factors." [emphasis mine]. Aggressive here means that it has a low LSI (tends to not deposit much calcium carbonate) and it is a mistake to think that alone might cause corrosion. If your alkalinity is good and you don't have other corrosives like chloride you have no problem.

Many manufacturers today are recommending total hardness below around 50 ppm, which is also simplified and intended as one easy way of avoiding scale buildup.

With respect to hardness and taste, it is commonly believed that you need hardness for good extractions. That has not been demonstrated in recent taste tests, nor in refractometer measurements. Here on HB, many discerning espresso drinkers are using the R. Pavlis water recipe and very happy with the taste, and that water has zero hardness. There are few well controlled taste experiments, but one of the better ones out there is from an SCAE study: Water: Why Quality Matters (pg 21. That was a blind study with expert tasters and statistical analysis, using two coffees and three waters. In that one the low mineral water (~ 50 ppm hardness, more like yours) was if anything better scoring than the high (~ 90 ppm) hardness water.

Also, the World Barista Championships water standard over the last few years has used a total hardness target of around 50 mg/L, and water from many coffee drinking areas (Seattle, Portland, San Francisco) is in the 20 -50 mg/L hardness range.

And as I mentioned before, forget about TDS recommendations. The old SCAA guidance recommended 75 - 250 ppm, but the new SCA water quality handbook discusses pitfalls of TDS measurements, and doesn't recommended any range for TDS.

In your case with this remineralizer, once you test the hardness and alkalinity and check that against a TDS meter reading you can then use the TDS meter (always at the same temperature) to periodically check how the system is performing.