Need a water solution advice (high chlorides)

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MonLon
Posts: 31
Joined: 5 years ago

#1: Post by MonLon »

Hi guys,

This is my first post here, although I've been a reader of HB for many years.

I'd appreciate tips and advice for a water solution for my espresso machine.
I own a Londinium-R, which is plumbed-in and I'm having trouble getting good water values. I assume this is probably one of the reasons I am able to get rather good (but not great) tasting coffee.

I am drinking mainly third wave lighter roasts (ranging between Nordic to medium-light - depending on where I buy the coffee). I started playing with water options when I noticed the effect water had on the taste of my coffee, but only in the last few days, after doing some reading here did I realize that I have a more serious issue with my water - Chlorides. :?

I was previously not aware of this factor and its effect on corrosion; my problem is probably even worse as the water I am currently using has acid pH. I tried to read other posts but got a little lost with figuring out a solution that will solve both taste and limescale/corrosion issues.

My municipality data for the tap water (although it seems to be 2 year-old data, so I do not know how much I can trust this) are:
Weighted: Min: Max:
Calcium as Ca (mg/l): 76 66 102
Magnesium as Mg (mg/l): 26 22 39
Hardness as CaCO3 (mg/l): 299 252 416
Chlorides as Cl (mg/l): 89 66 101
Sulfate as SO4 (mg/l): 16.6 12.7 19.4
Aluminum (ug/l): 9.1 7.2 10.7
Copper as Cu (ug/l): 0.4 0.2 0.7
Iron total as Fe (ug/l): 6.5 6.0 6.9
Sodium as Na (mg/l): 46 34 50
Zinc as Zn (mg/l): 16.1 13.4 18.6
Dissolved matter as 180 (mg/l): 444 380 575

I'd previously tried using a simple salt-based ION-exchanger (which I was using until I started to drink specialty coffee), but it resulted in very flat cup of coffee. Using a WAC Brita filter of type Purity C150 Quell ST greatly improved the taste of the coffee, but resulted in acidic water (pH < 6).
I then tried a BWT Bestmax Premium, but for some reason the water I got from it were not soft enough and on top of this, the coffee did not taste good.

And then I went into trying the Brita C150 and the BWT connected after it.
Not sure how good an idea this is, but it did a few things:
- the taste of the coffee improved (possibly due to the added Mg from the BWT).
- it allowed me to set each filter at a higher bypass level and resulted in a higher pH. My pH now is: 6-6.2 (if I leave the water out overnight, the pH rises to 7.4, but I'm not sure if this is meaningful here).
- Other values are: KH - 55 mg/l, GH - 71 mg/l

When I measure my water tap, I get: pH 7.2, KH: 130 mg/l GH: 140 mg/l

So, finding out the high level of Chlorides and what it can do, I understand none of the above filters is an option for me.
I tried to think/read what I can do, but could not reach a conclusion as to what would be the best approach.

I much prefer to leave the machine plumbed in, but if the only chance to get good water will be to switch back to the tank mode, then I'll probably do it.
However, my main problem with the tank is that from the short time I was using it, I noticed that if I leave the machine on for a long time, the water in the tank will gradually become hotter and as a result this will affect shot temperature and consistency.

The options I was able to come up with are:
1. Reverse Osmosis (plumbed-in) - this would have been the simplest/best solution if I could find a good solution for remineralization.
In another thread (After RO water) I've seen a recommendation for this RO system:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N2941T2/
However, while it may have safe water values, I am not really sure how a range of 30-60 mg/l TDS will work for the taste. This range seems to be quite wide and users reviews on Amazon mention varying numbers that are usually closer to 30 than 60.
I'm not sure if the different numbers are due to different measurement devices or whether I can somehow control/affect the result.
My main concern here is whether the investment here will yield the same taste I get in 3rd wave cafes (which is what I'm after).
Due to the Chlorides in my tap water, I assume that blending tap water is not going to be an option for me in order to be able to play with different waters, right?
Any thoughts or ideas what can be done here? Or if I can expect a good result taste-wise, even though not all water parameters conform with the SCA recommendation?

2. Using a Flojet (or some other pump) with manually created water.
The issues here are:
- Flojet does not create enough pressure for the pre-infusion in my L-R, though I understand there are other alternatives.
- Generated noise might make me miss one of the advantages of the machine being plumbed in, which makes it almost silent.
- I was not able to understand if the pump in this solution is always on or whether I need to turn it on before using the machine?
And will it make noise only when I make coffee or constantly have some hum?
- Does it create steady pressure?
- The biggest issue here seems to be the water again.
I'll be able to create my own water by manually adding minerals to RO water, but this means a larger investment (RO+Flojet) than the previous option.
A probably preferable alternative would be to use distilled water mixed with minerals.
However, doing an online search, I was surprised to find out that the only distilled water I could find in my country are for usage with irons & cars and they say it's not for drinking.
It does not make much sense, I know. Any idea where I should look?
Or are the water that I did find safe to use once I add minerals to them (despite what the label says)?

3. All other solutions I can think of involve going back to using the water tank, again with creating my own water by either:
- mixing minerals
- buying 3rd wave water sticks
Not sure if it makes sense to invest in an RO system here, in case I cannot find distilled water for a decent price.
But, once again, using the tank is not my preferred option to begin with.

Any thoughts, ideas on the above or reference to an existing thread, I might have missed, will be most welcome.

justgrindit
Posts: 84
Joined: 7 years ago

#2: Post by justgrindit »

MonLon wrote:Hi guys,
A probably preferable alternative would be to use distilled water mixed with minerals.
However, doing an online search, I was surprised to find out that the only distilled water I could find in my country are for usage with irons & cars and they say it's not for drinking.
It does not make much sense, I know. Any idea where I should look?
Or are the water that I did find safe to use once I add minerals to them (despite what the label says)?
Normally it's labeled as not for drinking because of the lack of minerals (drinking large quantities could end up depleating the minerals from your body). If that's the case you should be fine using it for coffee after remineralization.

It could also be labeled as such because it was distilled using equipment that is contaminated with unwanted chemicals or such. You could try getting in contact with the supplier and inquire about the reason for labeling it as not for drinking.

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MonLon (original poster)
Posts: 31
Joined: 5 years ago

#3: Post by MonLon (original poster) »

Good idea.
I'll try to see if I can get answers to this.
Thanks!

MonLon (original poster)
Posts: 31
Joined: 5 years ago

#4: Post by MonLon (original poster) »

Just noticed the municipality measured values of the water have different units, so I've added them.
Some are in milligram per liter (mg/l) which is equal to ppm and others (mainly metals) are in micro-gram per liter (ug/l), which as I understand 0.001ppm.

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homeburrero
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#5: Post by homeburrero »

I think your options are all reasonable if those chloride numbers are right. At a weighted average of 89 mg/L I think that's high enough to want to take special steps (RO, bottled/made water) to reduce that.

But I also think it might be worthwhile to double check with your water provider. Your water report indicated a total hardness of 252 - 416 mg/L as CaCO3 but your own tests indicated only 140 mg/L. Perhaps your water sources changed radically in the past two years.
Pat
nínádiishʼnahgo gohwééh náshdlį́į́h

MonLon (original poster)
Posts: 31
Joined: 5 years ago

#6: Post by MonLon (original poster) »

As for the data, I tried to check, but I'm afraid I cannot draw too many productive conclusions from it other than assume the worst case.
The data is indeed outdated (mid 2016). They did send me the newest data they have which is from mid 2017 :? .
The problem is that there are multiple tables there that correspond to different pumps in the system and they claim the water is also mixed, so they cannot tell me which table reflects the water that I eventually get.
Still, when I go over the tables there are some with lower hardness that are closer to my measurements (weighted: 179-189 low end: 148-167).
If I look at the Cloride levels at these tables, then it's even more confusing. The weighted number is about the same, but the range is bigger now and it goes from 31 to 140...so I guess I should assume the weighted value.

From what I tried to find out, there isn't any simple way to measure chlorides at home, is there?

The more I dig into this, the more confused I become. :cry:
My tendency is to go with the Home Master Artesian RO system. It seems to be simple, reliable and people are happy with the water they get.
However, I am quite not able to estimate what kind of coffee I'll get.
While I did get one positive feedback here on H-B for this system, I also had a look at the Amazon reviews.
While people are only measuring the TDS there and not other values, most of the numbers are closer to 30 than to 60 and some are even lower than 30.
I've also corresponded with the company and they say that the re-mineralization filter adds 95% Ca and 5% Mg.
It seems to be very little Mg (especially for light-roasted specialty coffee that I drink - AFAIK).
My biggest concern is investing in a system that will yield great drinking water but not great coffee.
Any way to know what to expect, based on possible value ranges?

It's really surprising to me that there is no home RO system available that can be used for specialty coffee (with adequate levels of Mg/Ca).
This could be a great KickStarter idea... :)

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homeburrero
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#7: Post by homeburrero »

MonLon wrote:From what I tried to find out, there isn't any simple way to measure chlorides at home, is there?
There is - Hach sells test strips as well as a drop titration kit. For the accuracy we need for espresso machine water (reasonable resolution in the 10 - 70 mg/L range) the low range model 8-P (about $60 USD, appx 100 tests) titration kit is probably the way to go - each drop corresponds to 5 mg/L chloride ion.
https://www.hach.com/chloride-low-range ... 7640219502
Pat
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MonLon (original poster)
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#8: Post by MonLon (original poster) »

Thanks homeburrero!
Assuming that I go with the RO solution, is it worth investing in such a kit?
Because, on second thought, the kit will tell me what the actual value is, but I assume it's anyway too high and out of the recommended range.

Actually the question that bothers me now is how concerned should I be with regard to corrosion damage that already exists in the machine?
Is there a way to estimate (according to time and frequency of use, chlorides and pH levels etc.) without opening up the machine?
Is there any action that I should take in this regard except switching to a different water?
Are there any health risks involved?

If this was already discussed, could someone please refer me to it?
Thanks!

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homeburrero
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#9: Post by homeburrero »

MonLon wrote:Assuming that I go with the RO solution, is it worth investing in such a kit?
If you go with RO and a remineralizer, you certainly don't need to test for chloride.

Even if you were to go with RO plus a bypass rather than remineralizer, you can simply use a TDS meter for ballpark guessing. The TDS reading of the filtered water divided by the TDS reading of the tap water, (both measured at the same temperature) multiplied by 90 mg/L (your average chloride in the tap water) will give you a rough idea of the average chloride coming through.
MonLon wrote:how concerned should I be with regard to corrosion damage that already exists in the machine?
Is there a way to estimate (according to time and frequency of use, chlorides and pH levels etc.) without opening up the machine?
Is there any action that I should take in this regard except switching to a different water?
There is no exactness to this, in fact for a long time no-one seemed concerned about chloride and espresso machine corrosion. So I would say just don't worry about the past.
MonLon wrote:Are there any health risks involved?
No health risk at all. We need some chloride in our diet - table salt is sodium chloride. A glass of V8 juice has more chloride than a few liters of your tap water.
Pat
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MonLon (original poster)
Posts: 31
Joined: 5 years ago

#10: Post by MonLon (original poster) »

Thanks for the continued help Pat!

Regarding the chloride, my concern was due to the somewhat low pH in my post filter water, which may accelerate corrosion, as I understand.
And with regard to health risks, perhaps I did not explain what I meant well, but my concern was not from the chloride in the water but again from materials that may end up in the water in case there is some corrosion caused.

Back to the water solution..
after quite a lot of digging and reading there are some issues that I'm even more confused about and some that I'm giving a second to.
Sorry if this is too long to read, but I'm really trying to consider all options in order to find a solution that will serve me for the years to come.

With regard to RO I tried to understand what kind of water I'd be getting after the mineralization stage when it comes to calcium and magnesium in the water and not just hardness and pH.
I almost went with the system that I've mentioned in the first post, after getting a positive feedback from an HB member, who uses it.
But the following issues put this on hold:
1. From reviews that I've seen on Amazon, the TDS values most people are measuring have a very large variance.
A lot of them are around 20 and not 60.
This made me confused as to why people are getting such different values and what I can expect to get.
I assume it's either related to the inlet water pressure (probably affects the amount of time the water comes in contact with the minerals) or the initial TDS (will a very high TDS in tap water result in a higher value after the RO membrane (before the mineralizator)?).
I could not figure whether I can expect good values or will end up throwing money away.
Any thoughts anyone?
2. From contacting the company I've learned that the re-mineralization is 95% calcium and 5% magnesium.
This means very little magnesium in the water, which is far from being ideal for light roasts.
3. I've recently learned about fake reviews in Amazon. Not sure how to judge this, but the web-sites that analyze the reviews for this system detect a lot of suspicious reviews.
Moreover, there are some less favorable reviews suggesting that the big advantage of this system having the quick connect pipes is actually its Achilles heel and is prone to failure/flooding and not so easy filter replacement as advertised.

This made me look at other systems.
The main problem kept being the re-mineralization having rather low or high-variance TDS values.
I even came across a post in the Londinium forum about this, by someone who tested quite a few re-mineralization filters and ended up with contacting a local company to manufacture a filter with more minerals especially for him, with which he reported good results. Alas, this filter is not widely available to buy, as I understood.

Another issue was that some mineralization filters resulted in very alkaline water (pH > 8 and sometimes >10).

From speaking to some water expert locally, he mentioned that adding Magnesium to RO water is a big PITA, as calcium tends to bind harder to the water and also as the pH rises, less and less minerals are added.

On top of this, I am not sure if the RO solution will work well for the Londinium-R pre-infusion.
As I understand, the pressure from the bladder tank is usually about half of the incoming water pressure and it declines as water is being drawn.
My Londinium requires a 3bar pre-infusion pressure.
Can this be achieved? Or will I need to add a pump?

Blending of RO and tap water could indeed solve the re-mineralization issue.
I've tried to look for posts about this, but could not find one that explicitly specifies the require connections.
What I was able to understand is that I'll need to have a pressure regulator both after the RO and my tap water and tweaking the pressure on both will control the blend ratio. Is this right?
I assume I'll also need a pump here to increase pressure after this.

I also explored other directions.
Tried to check if I can get distilled water locally that is OK for drinking but could not find any.
Then I've found out I can use a home water distiller like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/Megahome-Counter ... dpSrc=srch
and create water by mixing up minerals.
Basically I assume it's similar to using pure RO water as a basis, but if I intend to use the water only for espresso, then this option comes out much cheaper I think.

I started to read about Flojet/Shurflo and similar pumps that people have connected together with a pre-pressurised accumulator or an RO bladder tank.
I could not quite understand whether I can get a steady pre-infusion pressure for my Londinium.
I assume that for a lot of machines this solution works well, as the incoming pressure doesn't have to be steady, but can this work with the Londinium?

Finally, the last resort is going back to tank feeding the L-R (with manual mineral mix).
Not my preferred solution, but perhaps the simplest one after all.

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