Calcium source water recipes - Page 2

Water analysis, treatment, and mineral recipes for optimum taste and equipment health.
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homeburrero
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#11: Post by homeburrero »

Acavia wrote:Is magnesium carbonate or magnesium hydroxide dangerous?
Not dangerous to ingest. Tums is mostly calcium carbonate, and Milk of Magnesia is mostly magnesium hydroxide. If in high concentrations they might plate out as scale inside an espresso machine where they might cause clogs, but even if that happened it that can be fixed by descaling. You can use your concentrate bottle, and the fact that it's not cloudy and has no sediment shows that you have no problem. Even if it did you could give the bottle a good shake before pouring off some concentrate to make your brewing water and be fine.
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#12: Post by homeburrero »

Acavia wrote:Is there any water quality advantage to making concentrate? If no water quality advantage, I would rather get a 0.001g scale and add dry minerals to finished water just as I do with TWW as that is easier to me than dealing with concentrate.
No, just convenience. My scale has 0.1g readability and I think it would be passable for making gallon amounts, adding appx 0.4 gram of potassium bicarb to a gallon. That is a very tiny amount -- about 1/12th teaspoon. Newer versions of my scale can be set for 0.01 gram readability, but I think the precision is still around ±0.1 gram, which should be OK for this purpose.
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#13: Post by Acavia (original poster) replying to homeburrero »

I ordered a mg scale. It was $14, so worth a shot. I assume for small measurements it will be more accurate than my 0.1g Pearl scale.

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#14: Post by Acavia (original poster) »

homeburrero wrote:Yes, especially for larger containers . Concentrates are just a convenience. You don't have to get out the salts and scales very often and you don't have to measure such teensy amounts of the salts.



Hardness:
For a 1 US gallon container, to hit the oft-recommended target of 70 mg/L hardness (as CaCO3) you would add
0.65 grams of Epsom salt
Do you know a dry Calcium hardness source that would work? I would like to test a magnesium and calcium hardness mixture.

As I understand it, a dry element source will break down into other chemical combination besides that metals ions, so you can not do a straight measurement (i.e. you can not use 70mg of the dry source it per L and get 70mg, it would be far less.) So if you can site a Calcium dry source, do you know the measurement that would equate to 70mg/L hardness after it dissolves?

What I want to do if I can/my goal: known a magnesium source and a calcium source and what amounts of each would equate to 70mg/L . Then do some X part magnesium and X part calcium to equate a total 70mg/L so that I have both in the water so I can compare against all magnesium as that 70mg/L to see if calcium adds anything good to taste.

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#15: Post by Acavia (original poster) »

homeburrero wrote:Yes, especially for larger containers . Concentrates are just a convenience. You don't have to get out the salts and scales very often and you don't have to measure such teensy amounts of the salts.

Alkalinity:
For a 1 US gallon container, to hit the oft-recommended target of 40 mg/L alkalinity you would add
0.30 gram potassium bicarbonate
or
0.25 gram sodium bicarbonate

For 5 gallons it would be a little easier to hit the mark (1.5 grams of potassium bicarb or 1.25 grams of sodium bicarb)

Hardness:
For a 1 US gallon container, to hit the oft-recommended target of 70 mg/L hardness (as CaCO3) you would add
0.65 grams of Epsom salt

multiply by 5 to see that 5 gallons would require about 3.25 grams of Epsom salt.

P.S.
And you don't need high accuracy here. Twice as much bicarb would be fine, as would half as much Epsom. Or zero Epsom. 0.4 gram of potassium bicarb and zero Epsom in a gallon would give you the very popular RPavlis water.
Sorry to bug you again, but I want to write a a thank you for this. I backed-out the Alkalinity calculation and the Hardness calculation from a Barista Hustle recipe where its Alkalinity and Hardness was given for that recipe, ending up with: 1) 0.593754 mg of Alkalinity into which 1mg of Baking soda dissolves and 2) 0.406569 mg of Hardness into which 1 mg of Epsom salt dissolves. Those amount times your recommended doses produce the 40mg Alkalinity and 70mg Hardness per L in small rounding errors, confirming this to me.

This is so much easier to me that the concentrate route. I guess the concentrate route gives your freedom to use the concentrate for other recipes, but I would rather just make 7 or 8 brews worth of water and forget about it.

Thanks again.

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homeburrero
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#16: Post by homeburrero »

Yes, Barista Hustle's July 2019 version of their recipes, DIY Water Recipes Redux, is nicely geared to do a simple job of experimenting, creating a water with a target alkalinity and hardness as measured in CaCO3 equivalents, which is the preferred way to quantify those for coffee people.

For example, once you make the two concentrate bottles, if you wanted to make up a Northern Seattle-ish water with 20 mg/L alkalinity and 23 mg/L hardness, all you need to do is add 20 mg (20ml) of the bicarb concentrate and 23 mg (23 ml) of Epsom concentrate to a bottle and fill to the 1 liter mark with purified. (Of course the DIY water would differ in that it has magnesium hardness rather then calcium, has sodium and sulfate ion in higher amounts, and a somewhat higher conductivity than the Seattle tap water.)
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#17: Post by homeburrero »

Acavia wrote:Do you know a dry Calcium hardness source that would work? I would like to test a magnesium and calcium hardness mixture.

As I understand it, a dry element source will break down into other chemical combination besides that metals ions, so you can not do a straight measurement (i.e. you can not use 70mg of the dry source it per L and get 70mg, it would be far less.) So if you can site a Calcium dry source, do you know the measurement that would equate to 70mg/L hardness after it dissolves?
Just noticed that I neglected to respond to this. You can get calcium salts from LD Carlson in the form of calcium carbonate as well as calcium chloride. These are food grade and used by beer and wine makers. Both are reportedly pure, and I understand that the calcium chloride is anhydrous, CaCl2 (Some online recipes use the dihydrate, CaCl2*2H2O , which would require more.)

Calcium carbonate will not dissolve if above even moderate concentrations. Some people who use it resort to spritzing the water with a CO2 spritzer, which acidifies the water and helps it dissolve.

Each milligram of CaCO3 (molar mass 100 g/mol) equates to one milligram CaCO3 equivalent as you would expect.
One milligram of anhydrous CaCl2 (molar mass 111g/mol) equates to 0.901 milligram CaCO3 equivalent.
One milligram of dihydrous CaCl2*2H2O (molar mass 147 g/mol) equates to 0.680 milligram CaCO3 equivalent
One milligram of Epsom MgSO4*7H2O (molar mass 246 g/mol) equates to 0.406 milligram CaCO3 equivalent

So if you wanted to try a 50:50 calcium and magnesium mix at 70 mg/L total hardness you could use 86 mg/L Epsom and 39 mg/L anhydrous CaCl2. Then if you also added only enough bicarbonate to have an alkalinity of 40 mg/L I think you would have no problem with the calcium and bicarbonate precipitating out as CaCO3 in the bottle or kettle.


P.S.
Related to this topic, here's an example all calcium hardness recipe that pourover folks may find interesting -- it tries to approximate the standard water for the 2022 world brewing championships. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek1klngjssppi ... 5.pdf?dl=0 *

37 mg/L NaHCO3
18 mg/L CaCO3
37 mg/L CaCl2 (anhydrous)

(multiply by 19 to get the amounts needed in 5 gallons)

That recipe would give you:
40 mg/L total alkalinity,
51 mg/L calcium hardness,
10 mg/L sodium ion.
(and 24 mg/L chloride ion)

Not great for use in espresso machines, but OK for pourover. It uses sodium bicarbonate to satisfy the sodium target and part of the alkalinity, calcium carbonate to satisfy the remainder of the alkalinity target and provide and part of the calcium hardness, and calcium chloride to get the rest of the calcium hardness up to the target. It might take a while for that calcium carbonate to dissolve, but should fully dissolve at room temperature.


* Here's a quote from that 2022 WBrC water spec. (The 2022 WBC water spec says the same.)
The sponsored water will be calibrated with the following standard as the target:
•Odor: Clean/fresh, odorfree
•Color: Clear color
•Total Chlorine/Chloramine: 0 (zero) mg/L
•TDS: 85 mg/L (acceptable range 50-125 mg/L)
•Calcium Hardness: 3 grains or 51 mg/L (acceptable range 1-5 grains or 17-85 mg/L)
•Total Alkalinity: 40 mg/L (acceptable range at or near 40 mg/L)
•pH: 7.0 (acceptable range 6.5 to 7.5)
•Sodium: 10 mg/L (acceptable range at or near 10 mg/L)
Note that this spec specifies calcium hardness. I'm pretty sure they do that because it's based on the old 2011 SCAA water quality handbook and not that they really believe that calcium is preferable to magnesium for hardness. I suspect the water providers at the actual event don't even take care about calcium vs magnesium.
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#18: Post by Acavia (original poster) »

homeburrero wrote:
Each milligram of CaCO3 (molar mass 100 g/mol) equates to one milligram CaCO3 equivalent as you would expect.
One milligram of anhydrous CaCl2 (molar mass 111g/mol) equates to 0.901 milligram CaCO3 equivalent.
One milligram of dihydrous CaCl2*2H2O (molar mass 147 g/mol) equates to 0.680 milligram CaCO3 equivalent
One milligram of Epsom MgSO4*7H2O (molar mass 246 g/mol) equates to 0.406 milligram CaCO3 equivalent
Thanks for all this. Question to make sure I understand the maths:

So the amount need to hit mg/L = Target mg/L divided-by 100/X (where X=g/MOL) = amount in mg needed per L of distilled water to reach the target ppm (mg/L) of that mineral.

Then for gallon multiply that amount by 3.78541.

For example, the Epsom salt needed to reach 70 mg/L hardness in a gallon of distilled water =

70/(100/246) * 3.78541 = 651.84mg = .6584g

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#19: Post by homeburrero »

Acavia wrote:So the amount need to hit mg/L = Target mg/L divided-by 100/X (where X=g/MOL) = amount in mg needed per L of distilled water.
Then for gallon multiply that amount by 3.78541.
For example, the Epsom salt needed to reach 70 mg/L hardness in a gallon of distilled water =
70/(100/246) * 3.78541 = 651.84mg = .6584g
Yes. At least for all these compounds where 1 mole of the compound is chemically equivalent to 1 mole of CaCO3.

It might be more intuitive and convincing to do it in steps and show the unit labels
70 mg/L / 100 mg/mmol = 0.70 mmol/L
0.70 mmol/L * 246 mg/mmol = 172 mg/L
172 mg/L * 3.785 L/gallon = 651 mg/gallon

Note that the units cancel out properly to give you that final mg/gallon that you are looking for.
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#20: Post by Acavia (original poster) »

In a different thread you wrote, "Yes. 2.0 g of potassium bicarbonate is chemically equivalent to 1.68 g of sodium bicarbonate. (This factor is based on the molar masses: 100.1 g/mol for KHCO3, and 84.01 g/mol for NaHCO3)"

So if I used Potassium bicarbonate for my water's alkalinity, I would use 119.1525% (100/84.01) more potassium bicarbonate than what the sodium bicarbonate amount would have been for the same alkalinity level? So instead of .25g of baking soda per gallon, I should use ~0.298g of potassium bicarbonate?