Best inline water filtration for espresso machine in DC ? - Page 4
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homeburrero
- Team HB
- Posts: 4894
- Joined: 13 years ago
I figure I should chime in a little, and please forgive me for repeating some of what I posted here earlier.
My understanding is that copper and copper alloys are even more vulnerable than stainless steel because of chloride being a catalyst in pitting corrosion of copper. Some of that is discussed in this rpavlis post: Piston and valve sealing problems with many lever machines **
There is a topic related to what level is unsafe here: Boiler-safe level of chlorides (and other compounds) in water
There is no magic cutoff point where you need to use RO to eliminate chloride, and the conservative advice is that any chlorides may be corrosive. Near zero chloride in tapwater is becoming a rare thing with more reliance on surface water and gradual increase of chloride ion over the last 30 years (much of that due to road salt - see https://www.potomacdwspp.org/priority-i ... materials/ ).
It is a judgement call and I'd hate to make a blanket statement implying that everyone getting water from the Potomac watershed needs to ditch their conventional treatment and go over to an RO system. If the water has good alkalinity (as dcwater does) I think you are probably fine in these borderline cases if you go with conventional softening. You also have a little orthophosphate in that DC tapwater that in theory should also help mitigate potential for corrosion. I do think it unwise in water like this to use one of the decarbonizing (WAC) filters that are now popular for espresso machine filtration (BWT Bestmax, Everpure Claris, Mavea Quell ST, etc. ) to avoid acidifying your water and lowering the alkalinity.
Synesso's advice seems to be the most conservative. They used to recommend zero chloride, but newer advice recommends less than 15 mg/L.
I do agree that if you lose sleep worrying about corrosion, go with RO in these borderline cases, especially if you have a valuable machine that you want to hand down to your kids.
** Edit addition:
In a related post, yakster provided a couple better examples of rpavlis on chloride:
My understanding is that copper and copper alloys are even more vulnerable than stainless steel because of chloride being a catalyst in pitting corrosion of copper. Some of that is discussed in this rpavlis post: Piston and valve sealing problems with many lever machines **
There is a topic related to what level is unsafe here: Boiler-safe level of chlorides (and other compounds) in water
There is no magic cutoff point where you need to use RO to eliminate chloride, and the conservative advice is that any chlorides may be corrosive. Near zero chloride in tapwater is becoming a rare thing with more reliance on surface water and gradual increase of chloride ion over the last 30 years (much of that due to road salt - see https://www.potomacdwspp.org/priority-i ... materials/ ).
It is a judgement call and I'd hate to make a blanket statement implying that everyone getting water from the Potomac watershed needs to ditch their conventional treatment and go over to an RO system. If the water has good alkalinity (as dcwater does) I think you are probably fine in these borderline cases if you go with conventional softening. You also have a little orthophosphate in that DC tapwater that in theory should also help mitigate potential for corrosion. I do think it unwise in water like this to use one of the decarbonizing (WAC) filters that are now popular for espresso machine filtration (BWT Bestmax, Everpure Claris, Mavea Quell ST, etc. ) to avoid acidifying your water and lowering the alkalinity.
Their advice can be inconsistent. Some LM user manuals allow up to 50 mg/L chloride ion, most now recommend up to 30 mg/L (as does the LMUSA water spec). Their water calculator is very simplistic - it will advise that chloride may be corrosive for any non-scaling water and switches over to recommending RO when the chloride number is 31 mg/L or more. The Scott Guglielmino talks are excellent with his discussions of their experiences with machine corrosion in Cambridge MA where the chloride was above 100 mg/L .pcrussell50 wrote:Go have a search around La Marzocco's web sites and find their guide to recommended water chemistry. I think they have some guidelines for safe chloride levels.
Synesso's advice seems to be the most conservative. They used to recommend zero chloride, but newer advice recommends less than 15 mg/L.
I do agree that if you lose sleep worrying about corrosion, go with RO in these borderline cases, especially if you have a valuable machine that you want to hand down to your kids.
** Edit addition:
In a related post, yakster provided a couple better examples of rpavlis on chloride:
yakster wrote:See the esteemed late chemistry professor Robert Palvis' warnings here:
La Pavoni Europiccola boiler rust
Elektra Microcasa a Leva boiler leak problem
Pat
nínádiishʼnahgo gohwééh náshdlį́į́h
nínádiishʼnahgo gohwééh náshdlį́į́h
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pcrussell50
- Posts: 4036
- Joined: 15 years ago
Yes, Pat. Thanks as always.
I sure do love my plumbed machine. And I have it on an ion exchange softener (with carbon block), but I've had my head in the sand re chloride, hoping it's not a problem. It's a constant nagging worry though.
In the mean time, I'm more than happy to mix up Pavlis water for my Pavoni.
-Peter
I sure do love my plumbed machine. And I have it on an ion exchange softener (with carbon block), but I've had my head in the sand re chloride, hoping it's not a problem. It's a constant nagging worry though.
In the mean time, I'm more than happy to mix up Pavlis water for my Pavoni.
-Peter
LMWDP #553
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3cordcreations
- Posts: 348
- Joined: 7 years ago
Hey Peter,
What brand is your softener? We have an Ionics. It states it is an ion exchange softener as well. So yours has silver ion to kill bacteria?
We are having ours serviced this week to check the resin and change the carbon filter. We had an RO under the sink as well but I took that out because of the cost of filters and the water being too stripped down and now I filter the softened water through a Berkey water system with the black filters. No scale ever in my stainless pour over kettle.
I am going to have the tech check our water for these items being discussed above. I wonder if their kit can detect chloride... we shall see.
Thanks
What brand is your softener? We have an Ionics. It states it is an ion exchange softener as well. So yours has silver ion to kill bacteria?
We are having ours serviced this week to check the resin and change the carbon filter. We had an RO under the sink as well but I took that out because of the cost of filters and the water being too stripped down and now I filter the softened water through a Berkey water system with the black filters. No scale ever in my stainless pour over kettle.
I am going to have the tech check our water for these items being discussed above. I wonder if their kit can detect chloride... we shall see.
Thanks
A three cord strand is not easily broken...
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pcrussell50
- Posts: 4036
- Joined: 15 years ago
I use this one: https://www.gofoodservice.com/p/3m-esp ... 8QAvD_BwE
Though I did not buy from there. This is just a hit that came up in a google search. They are available all over the place it seems.The filters have a carbon block and an ion exchange softener in the same cartridge. For me, they are good for about a year on my plumbed espresso machine. I found out the chloride in my area is marginal. The levels are OK by La Marzocco guidelines and a bit high by Synesso guidelines.
-Peter
Though I did not buy from there. This is just a hit that came up in a google search. They are available all over the place it seems.The filters have a carbon block and an ion exchange softener in the same cartridge. For me, they are good for about a year on my plumbed espresso machine. I found out the chloride in my area is marginal. The levels are OK by La Marzocco guidelines and a bit high by Synesso guidelines.
-Peter
LMWDP #553
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3cordcreations
- Posts: 348
- Joined: 7 years ago
This is the one we have. See picture.
The techs came out today and changed the resin and carbon filter. They don't test for chloride so I don't know any numbers for that still and they couldn't tell me a number for my water hardness, just that it tested soft.
I am still running the water through our Berkey filter as well. I just don't know what the composition of my water is after filtering.
I also found our annual water report on line but they don't have one up yet for 2019. The report doesn't seem very complete...
http://williamsville.illinois.gov/water ... ports.html
The techs came out today and changed the resin and carbon filter. They don't test for chloride so I don't know any numbers for that still and they couldn't tell me a number for my water hardness, just that it tested soft.
I am still running the water through our Berkey filter as well. I just don't know what the composition of my water is after filtering.
I also found our annual water report on line but they don't have one up yet for 2019. The report doesn't seem very complete...
http://williamsville.illinois.gov/water ... ports.html
A three cord strand is not easily broken...
