Why is my first shot in the morning always poor compared to the second one with no changed settings? - Page 2

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
Espresso_Junky
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Joined: 7 years ago

#11: Post by Espresso_Junky »

h3yn0w wrote:I don't see how that would help a first shot that's problem is that it's too slow. Sounds more like a grinder issue, or human error.
Yeah same here... temperature won't likely affect flow as described.

I'm not a fan of leaving a spent puck in the basket long at all. Some may believe it helps thermal stability, but I don't buy it. All I would imagine it'd do is lead to a dirtier screen/basket from the residue baking from not being dumped/flushed soon after the extraction.

Espresso_Junky
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#12: Post by Espresso_Junky »

karlingen wrote:So, instead of throwing away yesterday's shot I'll just leave it in the portafilter until the next day?
What happened to keeping your machine clean? :o
I wouldn't leave a puck in more than a few minutes after an extraction. Schomer is entitled to his opinion like the rest of us.

wpK
Posts: 72
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#13: Post by wpK »

I had the same machine (just replaced it a few days ago). I would recommend having the machine turn on at least 45 minutes before your morning routine. This is more for flavor consistency than yield.

After having this exact issue I took a break from the machine and when I realized I spent all that money and I wasn't using it because of the inconsistency. I ended up investing in a Baratza Vario and a .1g scale. I'm not trying to discourage you and tell you that the machine can't provide you with the results you want.

The espresso machine itself is great which is why I changed the grinder to see if that would make any difference which it did.

Also I would recommend backflushing after each session. After each session I would flush some water, brush the screen and then run it through a 15 second backflush.

rand
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Joined: 8 years ago

#14: Post by rand »

h3yn0w wrote:I don't see how that would help a first shot that's problem is that it's too slow. Sounds more like a grinder issue, or human error.
The sage oracle is a nearly fully automatic machine, grinds and tamps for you. Not much room for human error there.
Espresso_Junky wrote:Yeah same here... temperature won't likely affect flow as described.

I'm not a fan of leaving a spent puck in the basket long at all. Some may believe it helps thermal stability, but I don't buy it. All I would imagine it'd do is lead to a dirtier screen/basket from the residue baking from not being dumped/flushed soon after the extraction.
Temperature will *exactly* affect the flow as described. In fact, I know this to be true. You can listen to an hour long talk about why the mythos clima pro was created - to make temperature stable grinds. a 20 degree difference in temperature inside the portafilter can have huge effects on how the coffee extracts. I have no doubt that a not thoroughly heated portafilter will result in a slower extraction while a hot portafilter will result in quicker extraction.

I personally believe it is an issue of thermal stability, although what mechanism is causing a lower temperature on the first shot is still to be decided.

And I am also not a fan of leaving a puck in a basket, I'd much rather make a throw away shot in the morning.
another_jim wrote:How very retro! Welcome to the "second shot effect," a standard complaint of Silvia owners on alt.coffee in the early aughts. The Breville's brew boiler is roughly the same size, so the effect may be the same. Turns out that since the boiler refills substantially during each shot, the ambient temperature of the case is critical, and the first shot in a sequence has a greater temperature drop than the second. On dual boilers, there is a similar "cold nose" effect. Flushing unobstructed won't help, it will simply cool the brew boiler down more.

The simplest trick is by Schomer: do not knock out the puck after making a shot, but leave the spent puck in. Then when you make a shot, flush through the spent puck, knock it out, then make the next shot. This is the equivalent of making a throwaway shot (another thing desperate owners tried) Another trick is to turn the machine on a full hour early, and leave it on all day, providing the machine is not so "smart" that it helpfully saves you the electricity. Finally, you can wrap some insulation around the brew boiler, if the case has the room.
Jim, I'm trying to wrap my head around this. A couple questions:

1) Schomer's theory is that the second shot of the day (if pulled in an obstructed basket) will result in an overall increase of the temperature inside the case. This ambient temperature increase helps to maintain thermostability throughout the timespan of the second shot being pulled, despite the fact that there is now cold water inside the boiler? Is that correct?

1.5) I assume this works because the introduction of cold water to the boiler triggers the activation of the heating coil that (when turned on) raises the ambient temperature inside the case. Is that the basic assumption behind Schomer's theory?

2) I am wondering if you can elaborate more on why flushing unobstructed will not help. How does flushing without a portafilter in place or an unobstructed portafilter in place cool the boiler more while an obstructed portafilter does not cool the boiler but instead somehow increases heat... within the case?

3) If what I gather about 1) is correct, and if 2) does truly rely on an obstructed portafilter, would a blind basket inserted into the portafilter that you will be using for the day function in the same manner as using an old puck? This would accomplish both the goal of raising ambient case temperature and preheating the portafilter (although, not the basket) while simultaneously erasing the fear of an old puck influencing the flavor of the espresso.

4) I know alt.coffee is now defunct and the google page never took off. Do you have any reading on the matter, perhaps archived posts somewhere?
Product development & Training. Car enthusiast. Roasting every now and then.

rand
Posts: 56
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#15: Post by rand »

OP, a video is worth a million words. If it's possible to film your morning preparation after the machine is heated and then pulling the first two shots of the day, I think maybe we could get a bit of a better diagnosis? Certainly wouldn't hurt.
Product development & Training. Car enthusiast. Roasting every now and then.

h3yn0w
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#16: Post by h3yn0w »

rand wrote:The sage oracle is a nearly fully automatic machine, grinds and tamps for you. Not much room for human error there.

Temperature will *exactly* affect the flow as described. In fact, I know this to be true. You can listen to an hour long talk about why the mythos clima pro was created - to make temperature stable grinds. a 20 degree difference in temperature inside the portafilter can have huge effects on how the coffee extracts. I have no doubt that a not thoroughly heated portafilter will result in a slower extraction while a hot portafilter will result in quicker extraction.

I personally believe it is an issue of thermal stability, although what mechanism is causing a lower temperature on the first shot is still to be decided.
Im not sure about the exactly part. Temperature will have some effect of flow rate, but The OP is describing a situation where the flow rate is doubling from one shot to the next. That's a massive change. I have doubts that a thermal stability issue would cause such a dramatic change, which is why I suggested grinder or basket prep issue. If I have time and some coffee to waste I will experiment with this myself :)

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another_jim
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#17: Post by another_jim »

rand wrote:Jim, I'm trying to wrap my head around this. A couple questions:

1) Schomer's theory is that the second shot of the day (if pulled in an obstructed basket) will result in an overall increase of the temperature inside the case. This ambient temperature increase helps to maintain thermostability throughout the timespan of the second shot being pulled, despite the fact that there is now cold water inside the boiler? Is that correct?

1.5) I assume this works because the introduction of cold water to the boiler triggers the activation of the heating coil that (when turned on) raises the ambient temperature inside the case. Is that the basic assumption behind Schomer's theory?

2) I am wondering if you can elaborate more on why flushing unobstructed will not help. How does flushing without a portafilter in place or an unobstructed portafilter in place cool the boiler more while an obstructed portafilter does not cool the boiler but instead somehow increases heat... within the case?

3) If what I gather about 1) is correct, and if 2) does truly rely on an obstructed portafilter, would a blind basket inserted into the portafilter that you will be using for the day function in the same manner as using an old puck? This would accomplish both the goal of raising ambient case temperature and preheating the portafilter (although, not the basket) while simultaneously erasing the fear of an old puck influencing the flavor of the espresso.

4) I know alt.coffee is now defunct and the google page never took off. Do you have any reading on the matter, perhaps archived posts somewhere?
I've conflated two "first shot" problems, the Silvia's after it's been turned on and hadn;t fully warmed up, and the old Lineas, after the saturated group cooled off when the traffic in the cafe paused, and a group hadn't beeen used for over five minutes.

In the Silvia, the surest way was to leave it on for an hour before first using it. A faster way was to pull shots, which would have the effect of heating the group. However, flushing the Silvia screwed up the thermal balance in the small boiler. The Breville is similar, a small brew boiler with a small heater heater (since the steam boiler gets the lions share of the wattage). In any small brew boiler machine, excessive flushing is never a good idea; but the machines are typucally desgined to hold a good temeprature profule if the water is flowing at shot making speed. Hence the spent puck technique.

In the old multigroup Lineas left on all day, the case temeperature was not a problem, but the saturated group was, it would ddrop about 6F if it was lefft unused for five minites, and the cold nose shots were aboyut 3 to 4 degrees cooler than the follow on ones. Flushing the group with a large rottary pump and no gicleur was also a very bad idea idea, even for a large brew bolier. Hence using the spent puck.

So for different reason, the cure is the same -- flush the machine at very low flow rates, and blocking the flow with a spent puck is an easy way to do this. If you have a Scace lying around, it will work even better. A "ghetto Scace," a spare basket with all the holes but one sealed, or a back flush basket with a pin hole, will also work (no patent violation, we were using these for years before Greg figured out how to make a real Scace with a precise flow rate).

To find the originals, you'd need to to a search of the stored newsgroups. Not sure if the signal to noise ratio would make it worth while
Jim Schulman

Bret
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#18: Post by Bret »

I'm confused now, too. The OP has a Breville 980xl, which has an actively heated group head, and if it is the same as my 920xl, no flushing is needed for temperature control, except maybe in the case where the portafilter is going in cold rather than having been heated by the group head from power up or at least long enough before the first shot.

Espresso_Junky
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#19: Post by Espresso_Junky »

Well I've extracted tens of thousands of doubles on many machines and have yet to see thermal stability cause a flow rate issue. To each his/her own, but not buying into that.

I wouldn't waste an hour listening to why a grinder needs to control temp of grounds. I'm a fan of NS, but doubt their reasoning behind that.

wpK
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#20: Post by wpK replying to Espresso_Junky »

The issue is the flow difference is extremely large. I had the same experience which is why I assumed it was something to do with the grinder. Even having the machine heated up an hour before and running a backflush was causing large inconsistencies. When I switched to the Baratza Vario this problem went away.