WDT latest understanding? - Page 2

#11: Post by **K9drivr** » September 24th, 2022, 6:51 pm

So the chart shows that doing nothing results in essentially the same peak pressure, yield and taste as the .4mm WDT?

#12: Post by **Pressino** » September 24th, 2022, 6:57 pm

bostonbuzz wrote:Thanks for the info. I pulled a screenshot from the video.

He describes "raking" which is just the top to essentially make the top of the grinds flat and keep the fluffiness mainly to avoid doughnut extractions even in perfectly clump-free grinds. .4mm springy acupuncture needles are on their tool.

Personally I just do a shake, but my curiosity is piqued since I have doughnuts.

From that graph it appears that "no distribution" does better or at least as well as the first two techniques in terms of EY and taste and quite close (is suspect enough to be statistically insignificant) in terms of max puck extraction pressure. All of which seems to beg the question.

In any case as I wrote earlier, I know that WDT has improved my extraction and using a thin straightened paper clip that I swirl around does a fine job breaking up the clumps and I have absolutely no channeling since I started using that technique. I'm quite happy that it cost next to nothing. I'm not planning to spend money buying expensive multi-wired WDT tools. It's pretty clear from recent and past opinions expressed on HB-com that others believe they are worth their expense, and I think anything that increases one's enjoyment of coffee is worth it.

#13: Post by **Jonk** » September 24th, 2022, 7:27 pm

What originally made WDT a part of my routine is that it reduces or eliminates spritzers. This is very much the case when using grinders that don't clump and dark roasts as well.

September 24th, 2022, 7:28 pm

roadman wrote:It depends on the severity of the doughnut action. If it starts to doughnut and immediately resolves and the shot goes to normal quickly then yes, it's easy to ignore. But on rare occasion the doughnut pattern lingers through most of the shot and has a negative impact on flavor.

Don't have a way to measure extraction yield. Thinking that if someone published a paper titled "The Effect of Doughnut Pulls on Extraction Yields" they might be in contention for an Ig Nobel Prize

Interesting enough I believe the Astrophysicist guy, Jonathan Gagne, published some papers on this very topic. I'll try to find them and provide a link, if I can't...I'll crawl back into my hole and disappear.

#15: Post by **mathof** » September 25th, 2022, 9:47 am

roadman wrote:It depends on the severity of the doughnut action. If it starts to doughnut and immediately resolves and the shot goes to normal quickly then yes, it's easy to ignore. But on rare occasion the doughnut pattern lingers through most of the shot and has a negative impact on flavor.

Don't have a way to measure extraction yield. Thinking that if someone published a paper titled "The Effect of Doughnut Pulls on Extraction Yields" they might be in contention for an Ig Nobel Prize

LoL. I I have the kind of doughnuts that appear first during PI and disappear immediately on going to full pressure (spring lever machine, Unifilter). I see the same on videos of the Unifilter in action.

September 26th, 2022, 2:27 am

Got some .4mm needles and made a device.

Noticed my shot times went up. Seems like more even extraction. I have to make less yield to have the same extraction level. 36g vs 40g. Still have a doughnut but just barely. Taste is good.

I think i see why people still WDT now.

I changed my workflow to be straight into the pf +WDT instead of into a tumbler. It's a better workflow.

#17: Post by **boren** » September 26th, 2022, 5:53 am

Latest understanding: Get a grinder that doesn't create clumps.

I personally dislike WDT and only do it, begrudgingly, when I use my manual grinders.

#18: Post by **mgrayson** » September 26th, 2022, 6:46 am

My 2p,

Optimize a few other parameters before judging a different workflow.

When someone shows a graph that gives a competitor's product a lower rating, look for error bars and methodology. If the former is missing or the latter is "we optimized for our product and then just switched out one thing leaving everything else the same", the results can be safely ignored.

High dimensional optimization is very hard in theory and impossible in practice. Good enough, which may be very good, is the best you can hope for.

Matt

#19: Post by **slybarman** » September 26th, 2022, 7:44 am

Jake_G wrote:As much as it pains me to admit it, I think the thing that changed the perspective is the DE1.

I gave in to peer pressure from James Hoffman.

it's tough to argue with the expertise of a fussy man in glasses.

September 26th, 2022, 7:48 am

bostonbuzz wrote:Got some .4mm needles and made a device.

Noticed my shot times went up. Seems like more even extraction. I have to make less yield to have the same extraction level. 36g vs 40g. Still have a doughnut but just barely. Taste is good.

I think i see why people still WDT now.

I changed my workflow to be straight into the pf +WDT instead of into a tumbler. It's a better workflow.

Excellent!! Sometimes things aren't so noticeable with WDT, but yours definitely were, especially that increase in shot time.