HB wrote:Nobody disputes VST/Strada baskets are manufactured consistently. Innermusic's comment refers to the comparative "forgiveness factor". Since you arguably have one of the most forgiving espresso setups on the planet, you may not be well positioned to offer an informed opinion on how the various baskets impact consistency for those using less forgiving setups. Just sayin'.

"Forgiveness factor" is a little too vague for me. Given my own experience with VST baskets (no problems with consistency on my very forgiving setup), I think it's something more specific: the finer grind required by the VST, and perhaps the basket geometry as it affects headroom, reveal the inconsistency of the setup.

I have a Baratza Vario, and while I think it's a terrific grinder for the price, consistency is probably its greatest weakness -- especially if you use the hopper. Also, my impression is that the BV struggles more with consistency at finer grind settings. Can't comment on the Silvano, but headroom could be an issue. It certainly is for Silvia.

My point is, there's nothing inconsistent about the VST baskets, but they may not work well with inconsistent equipment. I would say the same thing about LM double baskets and several others I've tried. The most "forgiving" basket I've used is the Synesso LM-like ridgeless double. That one seems to work well with most grinders and machines.

I have a Baratza Vario, and while I think it's a terrific grinder for the price, consistency is probably its greatest weakness -- especially if you use the hopper. Also, my impression is that the BV struggles more with consistency at finer grind settings. Can't comment on the Silvano, but headroom could be an issue. It certainly is for Silvia.

Interesting point about the Vario. What would explain that inconsistency?

I really don't know, but I can make a few guesses.

First, let me say that the BV is more consistent than most of the non-Titan grinders out there. I'm comparing it with a Titan, my K10 WBC. Perhaps an unfair comparison.

The volume of beans in the BV hopper definitely affects consistency -- when the bean column above the burrs gets down an inch or two, results tend to get unpredictable. That's true of many grinders, I guess.

The other area I'd suspect is the burr adjustment mechanism. It's not exactly heavy-duty and it's known to slip sometimes. My sense is that small amounts of slippage are more noticable when the grind is finer.

Changes in drive belt tension might have something to do with it as well.

Finally, size of the burrs might conspire with some or all of the above to affect consistency.

Never considered the size of the load in the hopper as a mitigating factor. I always measure out one dose of beans and load into the hopper and grind. Almost all of it comes out.

I've been trying to figure out why some users think the VST baskets are more difficult to work with and I have one idea. When looking at my Synesso basket, I noticed the holes don't go all the way to the edge. Actually neither do the VST's but the holes are much closer to the edge than the Synesso. Maybe not having holes close to the edge is an advantage for preventing side channeling? Maybe that's part of the forgiveness factor?

Peppersass wrote:I really don't know, but I can make a few guesses.

First, let me say that the BV is more consistent than most of the non-Titan grinders out there. I'm comparing it with a Titan, my K10 WBC. Perhaps an unfair comparison.

The volume of beans in the BV hopper definitely affects consistency -- when the bean column above the burrs gets down an inch or two, results tend to get unpredictable. That's true of many grinders, I guess.

The other area I'd suspect is the burr adjustment mechanism. It's not exactly heavy-duty and it's known to slip sometimes. My sense is that small amounts of slippage are more noticable when the grind is finer.

Changes in drive belt tension might have something to do with it as well.

Finally, size of the burrs might conspire with some or all of the above to affect consistency.

So really, if grind consistency is the bigger culprit for many who are struggling with the VST baskets, can we really say that the VST requires more skill from the user?

It seems that if you have better equipment, you will have more success with the VST. Is it just me, or do most of the VST issues come from people who have non-Titan grinders?

I'm just throwing these questions out for discussion. I would say my success and failures with the VST have been about equal. My friend's success ratio who has a GS3 and a Baratza Vario has been greater than mine but he is a more experienced user than I.

Keep in mind, these baskets were designed for commercial use and as such assume a minimum quality of grinder that might be quite a bit higher than the average home barista's grinder.

Actually... in general, keep in mind these baskets were designed to solve a bunch of problems present in commercial use - and were designed assuming a commercial set-up and use-case. They were not designed for home barista problems or needs.

Maybe I missed the fine print on that. They certainly don't advertise it exclusively for commercial use. Perhaps if I followed the production of the product more closely, I would have been able to pick-up on that, but being a newbie and being that VST clearly makes it easy to purchase for home use, I feel a little dumb.

That said, I still enjoy the challenge of dialing in the VST basket, but it seems moot if I'm working with improper equipment.

I think these reasons along with my 50% success/failure ratio will allow me to go back to my regular double basket without any consternation that I'm missing out on something.

With all due respect, these baskets simply remove some of the problems when brewing espresso, home user or not, thereby exposing other problems that might not have been as prominent as with other baskets. That does not imply that the contrary is not true, of course: one might see problems with the VSTs one does not have with other baskets, too.

Personally, I consider any tool of great value that allows me to understand things better and to get hold of problems. That's something the VSTs certainly do very well. I find that they do this by allowing me to brew a better cup, and by providing me with a much better theoretical foundation to understand what is going on.

Last but not least, being able to produce a better cup is a great value in its own right (do I have to say this, really?).

With respect to the vario, which I also use myself: If you have a coffee that already pushes it to its limits in the 22g VST in terms of grinding fine, it will drive you crazy with the 18g. In addition, with such a coffee, just remove the hopper after grinding a 20g dose at a fine setting, and use your finger to touch the well (or feel the heat of the coffee grind). Even at a 10 minute interval the vario will get hotter by the shot (which is ok by the spec of the grinder, so I am not blaming it, ok).

jc69 wrote:With all due respect, these baskets simply remove some of the problems when brewing espresso, home user or not, thereby exposing other problems that might not have been as prominent as with other baskets. That does not imply that the contrary is not true, of course: one might see problems with the VSTs one does not have with other baskets, too.

Earlier in this thread I noted VST/Strada baskets are manufactured more consistently than previously available. Whether a given basket is more/less tolerant of errors in barista technique than another basket isn't something to be demonstrated by a histogram; it's only demonstrable through extensive hands-on experience. I haven't noticed much difference between the VST and other baskets in terms of usage, but in all fairness, like JonR10, I'm using equipment that's at the far end of the ease-of-use scale.