Surprisingly, I couldn't find this topic posted already, so here goes.

I enjoy drinking all types of espresso drinks from shots to cappuccinos. No offense to any latte drinkers, but anything beyond a cappuccino and I may as well be drinking a cup of hot milk. Although I enjoy shots more, I often finish a session with a milk drink of some sort. I typically pull ristrettos. Although there's a range, I use what I think are "traditional" sizes for my milk drink cups: 3 oz demitasse for macchiatos, 4.5 oz gibraltar for cotrados, 5 oz cup for cappuccinos.

When it comes to pulling milk drinks for myself and friends, ristrettos usually end up making milk drinks with a lower coffee to milk ratio than I'd prefer for the particular variety of drink. Naturally, this outcome is due to the lower mass of the ristretto compared to a longer pull. I'm toying with the idea of pulling ristrettos for shots and normales for the milk drinks, although I'll probably enjoy using a ristretto as a base more because that's my preferred shot. It will be slightly annoying to adjust the grind and clear the grinder in between drinks after I'm dialed in, but it's not really difficult to go from a ristretto to a normale with respect to the grind, especially after you've done it a few times with a particular bean.

Does anyone else do this? Or is the "duh" answer simply to fill the cup a little less than usual when pouring textured milk into a ristretto versus a longer pull. I'm just curious to see what others do.

At some point, the important flavor components are fully extracted from the coffee, and pulling more water through the puck basically dilutes the shot. I prefer not to do this, especially with milk drinks. The beans seem to have much more of an impact on how much milk (if any) works best, not whether it's pulled as ristretto/normale/lungo.

So no, I do not vary the extraction for milk drinks. Instead, I vary the amount of milk according to my taste for that particular bean blend.

I put in another 1-1.5gm of beans for cappuccino

"........and pulling more water through the puck basically dilutes the shot". But, it does not come out as water, it still has coffee. I find a longer shot serves me better for Lattes and caps. Why do Italians advise up to 60 ml for shots (in 30 secs for a double), but here it seems a 2:1 ratio of water to beans is what most use, or even less (1.5:1)? Longer extractions are in category of over-extraction, I think, so what does 'over' mean in this regard, if it's more dilute, is is considered over-extracted. Then under-extracted might mean too little water?

The differences between the 'classic' recipe (14 gm bean to 60 ml water) and 'new wave' ~17 gm bean and 34 ml or less water) seem huge. It this explained simply by different taste across the continents?

Is there any 'standard' here in the states?

Sideshow wrote:ristrettos usually end up making milk drinks with a lower coffee to milk ratio than I'd prefer for the particular variety of drink. Naturally, this outcome is due to the lower mass of the ristretto compared to a longer pull. I'm toying with the idea of pulling ristrettos for shots and normales for the milk drinks, although I'll probably enjoy using a ristretto as a base more because that's my preferred shot.

What type of basket do you use for your ristrettos? Perhaps you could get something like a VST 15g basket for straight shot ristrettos (dosing ~17-18g or so), and then a VST 20g or 22g basket for milk drinks (with similar up-dosing)? That way, you can keep your grind setting the same, all you will have to do is switch out the baskets. You could still pull your ristretto-strength brew ratio, but dosing an extra 5-7g in each basket will give you a higher end extraction weight to punch through the ~5oz milk drink.

I think you raise some really good discussion points!

I use an IMS Precision basket - the 12 to 18 gram standard double. My default double dose is 16 grams. I may adjust up or down a bit, but I start from that benchmark.

I don't think simply increasing or decreasing the dose is the answer though. A ristretto is more than just a bigger or smaller dose in the basket or a longer or shorter pull. It's also the appropriate grind for the size of dose for a 25-35 second pull at a particular dose. If you just increase the dose, you'll run the risk of under-extracting (if you cut off in the normal time range) or over extracting (if you just let the shot go.) A ristretto aims for a particular dose-beverage ratio, and an integral part of that is the fineness of the grind.

Maybe you're suggesting that I simply pull a triple ristretto (i.e. something over 20 grams) for my milk drinks instead of a double? That might make a good deal of sense. Is that what you meant?

Sideshow wrote: Maybe you're suggesting that I simply pull a triple ristretto (i.e. something over 20 grams) for my milk drinks instead of a double? That might make a good deal of sense. Is that what you meant?

That's another way of putting it! To expand a little more, I was thinking if you have the 12/18 IMS for double ristrettos, you could get a 18/22 IMS for "triple" ristrettos specifically for milk drinks. This may/would allow you to swap the baskets out without changing the grind setting. So you would be pulling a 'ristretto' ratio, it would just be with a larger dose (and thus larger final volume).

caldwa wrote:What type of basket do you use for your ristrettos? Perhaps you could get something like a VST 15g basket for straight shot ristrettos (dosing ~17-18g or so), and then a VST 20g or 22g basket for milk drinks (with similar up-dosing)? That way, you can keep your grind setting the same, all you will have to do is switch out the baskets. You could still pull your ristretto-strength brew ratio, but dosing an extra 5-7g in each basket will give you a higher end extraction weight to punch through the ~5oz milk drink.

I think your point is on track for some baskets, but not specifically VST baskets, which are notoriously dose sensitive. They don't do well with updosing.

caldwa wrote:That's another way of putting it! To expand a little more, I was thinking if you have the 12/18 IMS for double ristrettos, you could get a 18/22 IMS for "triple" ristrettos specifically for milk drinks. This may/would allow you to swap the baskets out without changing the grind setting. So you would be pulling a 'ristretto' ratio, it would just be with a larger dose (and thus larger final volume).

But again, you can't just add more coffee at the same grind fineness and keep the same brew ratio. If you have a double ristretto grind dialed in, and you move to a triple dose, you'll likely get an underextracted result, or no result at all as the water might not even make it's way through the puck. I'm not seeing a way around deciding on a particular dose and extraction ratio before hand, which requires adjustments for that particular milk drink.

TomC wrote:I think your point is on track for some baskets, but not specifically VST baskets, which are notoriously dose sensitive. They don't do well with updosing.

In my experience, the IMS baskets are likewise dose-sensitive.