Trying to keep a slower flow through entire shot - Page 2
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cafeIKE
- Supporter ❤
If the basket holds 16 to 18g, it's a 'double'.
In that basket, you should be able to dose 14g and choke the machine, meaning that you get nothing out in 30s.
If you can't then the grinder may have a problem.
Since you say the burrs chirp if you go any finer, it sounds as if the burrs are misaligned. Normally, one has to go a much finer from 'espresso' to begin hearing 'chirps' - at least on the dozen or so grinders that have passed through here.
In that basket, you should be able to dose 14g and choke the machine, meaning that you get nothing out in 30s.
If you can't then the grinder may have a problem.
Since you say the burrs chirp if you go any finer, it sounds as if the burrs are misaligned. Normally, one has to go a much finer from 'espresso' to begin hearing 'chirps' - at least on the dozen or so grinders that have passed through here.
Ian's Coffee Stuff
http://www.ieLogical.com/coffee
http://www.ieLogical.com/coffee
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chanty 77 (original poster)
This is a Rocket Faustino (which I LOVE). Seems there are only a few people on this site that use it, and from other stuff I have googled--it appears people have it on the setting of 2 or maybe 1. For most of my espressos, I use 0. Below that, I believe I start to hear chirping. Maybe it's not ominous, maybe sound is subjective like taste & smell. Maybe others fill their baskets more & thus use a coarser grind. This has been pretty consistent at that setting with 99% of the espresso blends I've tried. On Day 10 of Barrington Gold, for whatever the reason, the flow has seemed to slow to more normal & I love it. Maybe (??) the 7th day post roast was too fresh for this particular roast.
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Nunas
- Supporter ♡
I agree with Ian. If your grinder can't grind fine enough to choke an espresso machine, then it's not really an espresso grinder (despite the adverts), its burrs are finished, or it's out of alignment. Since your grinder has flat burrs, you might check out this video and do the simple dry marker test to find out if alignment is the issue. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb3PgeQ6ewY
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chanty 77 (original poster)
Not the issue. It has choked numerous times & just ended up making a coarser grind or less grams of beans when this happens. Absolutely LOVE this grinder.
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Jake_G
- Team HB
What Linda is asking about has been relatively well-studied amongst the DE1 circle, and it is best summed up as the puck- resistance curve, and how one influences it with so-called "standard" preparation variables such as grind, dose and yield.
The condensed version of the cliffsnotes on the subject is that the coffee bean and the grinder each work together to set the shape of the puck resistance curve, all other things being equal. As DeGaulle pointed out, the increase in flow occurs because solids are being extracted from the puck, and it is presenting less resistance to the flow of water that is being forced through it with your machine. The behavior is "normal", but some coffees extract more earlier on than others, just as certain grinders tend to extract more early on than others. Since your grinder hasn't changed and your coffee has, you've asked a really reasonable question, which is literally the topic of discussion.
The short answer is that you are on the right track in that a higher dose will maintain a steady puck resistance longer than a smaller dose. But you are limited by the headspace of your machine and what your basket can hold. One of the fundamental variables in puck resistance is the thickness of the puck, and the two tools at your disposal to increase thickness are dose and basket geometry. A more cylindrical basket will have a thinner puck whereas a tapered basket will have a thicker puck for the same dose, and will maintain a steady flow rate for longer, all other things being equal.
The other thing that heavily influences puck resistance is preinfusion. Not sure if you are utilizing the built-in preinfusion capabilities of your Elizabeth, but if you are, decreasing the preinfusion duration can have a similar effect on the puck resistance as increasing the thickness of the puck. So, if you don't have the headspace needed to try increasing the dose and you aren't interested in procuring a new basket to try out, you could always back off or even eliminate preinfusion and ser if you prefer the results.
My counter-question is "What is it about the flavor, texture, or overall experience of drinking these shots that you wish to change?" If the coffee tastes great being pulled the way it is now, why change it?
Cheers!
- Jake
The condensed version of the cliffsnotes on the subject is that the coffee bean and the grinder each work together to set the shape of the puck resistance curve, all other things being equal. As DeGaulle pointed out, the increase in flow occurs because solids are being extracted from the puck, and it is presenting less resistance to the flow of water that is being forced through it with your machine. The behavior is "normal", but some coffees extract more earlier on than others, just as certain grinders tend to extract more early on than others. Since your grinder hasn't changed and your coffee has, you've asked a really reasonable question, which is literally the topic of discussion.
The short answer is that you are on the right track in that a higher dose will maintain a steady puck resistance longer than a smaller dose. But you are limited by the headspace of your machine and what your basket can hold. One of the fundamental variables in puck resistance is the thickness of the puck, and the two tools at your disposal to increase thickness are dose and basket geometry. A more cylindrical basket will have a thinner puck whereas a tapered basket will have a thicker puck for the same dose, and will maintain a steady flow rate for longer, all other things being equal.
The other thing that heavily influences puck resistance is preinfusion. Not sure if you are utilizing the built-in preinfusion capabilities of your Elizabeth, but if you are, decreasing the preinfusion duration can have a similar effect on the puck resistance as increasing the thickness of the puck. So, if you don't have the headspace needed to try increasing the dose and you aren't interested in procuring a new basket to try out, you could always back off or even eliminate preinfusion and ser if you prefer the results.
My counter-question is "What is it about the flavor, texture, or overall experience of drinking these shots that you wish to change?" If the coffee tastes great being pulled the way it is now, why change it?
Cheers!
- Jake
LMWDP #704
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chanty 77 (original poster)
Thank you Jake! You are right, my coffee flow is pretty consistent 98% of the time. I would rather it come out syrupy thick at a somewhat slower rate. With other blends of beans, I typically have been doing 28-maybe even 33 seconds. This is more like 25-26 seconds. If I let it go longer, it tastes blander & "thin" (if that makes sense). That's why I wonder if I loosen the grind & add more grams of beans--if that would do the trick. Maybe from 17.3g to 18.3g?? It's hard to explain on my grinder if one doesn't have this grinder---but it is at 0 now. Some of my blends go between the 1 & 0---then end up at 0 (finer) as the days go by. I'm thinking of coarsening it to between the 1 & 0 & trying more beans to see what happens with the flow.
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BodieZoffa
As you likely know, the numbers on any grinder are for a point of reference and not much else. True 0 might not even be actual zero unless you've taken it apart, cleaned, put back together and found the actual point of burr touch.
I'd say don't overthink things as that's quite easy to do with espresso. I never vary dose by more than .5 gram and do so only for certain bean types that I roast. I use a heavy duty palm tamper and rely on that to get actual consistent/minimal headspace with every coffee I use and just tweak the dose a bit to keep consistency. I take a different/radical approach in that I keep headspace very minimal as I don't buy into some 'theories' out there as I do what works for my taste/setup. I have things dialed in for decreased/controlled flow rate and grind rather fine in order to not want to see the 1st drop until the 15-20 second point. I push most extractions to at least the 50 second point and do go just over 60 seconds periodically. The yield I shoot for is around 1:1, as in 19.1 grams in on average and around 19 out. That gives me outstanding flavor and texture that I crave that anything less just won't match. Of course some coffees/roast levels are more suitable for this approach than others and I focus most of my dialing in on green selection/roast profile. Once machine warranty is up I plan to install a heavy duty Ulka pump so I can easily push over the 60 second mark repeatedly with no pump concern to see what might be waiting to unlock in that realm.
Your approach of going a bit more coarse/higher dose might work for your setup and only you will know by trying it. Maybe look into pump/OPV adjustment to give less pressure at the group as that's worked quite well for me with my approach over the years.
I'd say don't overthink things as that's quite easy to do with espresso. I never vary dose by more than .5 gram and do so only for certain bean types that I roast. I use a heavy duty palm tamper and rely on that to get actual consistent/minimal headspace with every coffee I use and just tweak the dose a bit to keep consistency. I take a different/radical approach in that I keep headspace very minimal as I don't buy into some 'theories' out there as I do what works for my taste/setup. I have things dialed in for decreased/controlled flow rate and grind rather fine in order to not want to see the 1st drop until the 15-20 second point. I push most extractions to at least the 50 second point and do go just over 60 seconds periodically. The yield I shoot for is around 1:1, as in 19.1 grams in on average and around 19 out. That gives me outstanding flavor and texture that I crave that anything less just won't match. Of course some coffees/roast levels are more suitable for this approach than others and I focus most of my dialing in on green selection/roast profile. Once machine warranty is up I plan to install a heavy duty Ulka pump so I can easily push over the 60 second mark repeatedly with no pump concern to see what might be waiting to unlock in that realm.
Your approach of going a bit more coarse/higher dose might work for your setup and only you will know by trying it. Maybe look into pump/OPV adjustment to give less pressure at the group as that's worked quite well for me with my approach over the years.
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Mad Scientist
[quote="Jake_G"]
A more cylindrical basket will have a thinner puck whereas a tapered basket will have a thicker puck for the same dose, and will maintain a steady flow rate for longer, all other things being equal.- Jake[/quote
Is the IMS Superfine basket an example of a tampered basket offering a more steady flow rate compared to a straight sided basket?
A more cylindrical basket will have a thinner puck whereas a tapered basket will have a thicker puck for the same dose, and will maintain a steady flow rate for longer, all other things being equal.- Jake[/quote
Is the IMS Superfine basket an example of a tampered basket offering a more steady flow rate compared to a straight sided basket?
“You haven't lived until you've lived with a cat.” Doris Day
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cafeIKE
- Supporter ❤
People:
Flow Ramp?
Shots flow faster as time progresses. Once flow stabilizes, it remains pretty constant for about last 2/3 of the shot.
If it goes watery at the end, something is not right.
'A' basket?
A dozen in various sizes and shapes is a better idea.
'0' to '1' on the grinder, where 0 is burr singing?
Grinder is maladjusted or not suitable for espresso.
Or the coffee is super stale.
Grinder espresso range is about 20° rotation for medium-ish roasts and relatively constant dose/basket combinations, more for darker and lighter roasts and larger dose variation.
Tamper headspace?
Only on a dry puck.
Headspace disappears when the puck expands on water contact and is determined only by dose, grind and pressure for constant basket / group geometry.
Constant Dose/Yield/Time across divers roasts?
¿WTF?
Dose step 1.0g?
How about 0.1g to ±0.05 dose tolerance in combination with ±¼ grinder increment on both calibrated scale and grinder?
Everything other than the taste is I R R E L E V A N T
The ONLY constant in espresso is there are NONE !!!
Flow Ramp?
Shots flow faster as time progresses. Once flow stabilizes, it remains pretty constant for about last 2/3 of the shot.
If it goes watery at the end, something is not right.
'A' basket?
A dozen in various sizes and shapes is a better idea.
'0' to '1' on the grinder, where 0 is burr singing?
Grinder is maladjusted or not suitable for espresso.
Or the coffee is super stale.
Grinder espresso range is about 20° rotation for medium-ish roasts and relatively constant dose/basket combinations, more for darker and lighter roasts and larger dose variation.
Tamper headspace?
Only on a dry puck.
Headspace disappears when the puck expands on water contact and is determined only by dose, grind and pressure for constant basket / group geometry.
Constant Dose/Yield/Time across divers roasts?
¿WTF?
Dose step 1.0g?
How about 0.1g to ±0.05 dose tolerance in combination with ±¼ grinder increment on both calibrated scale and grinder?
Everything other than the taste is I R R E L E V A N T
The ONLY constant in espresso is there are NONE !!!
Ian's Coffee Stuff
http://www.ieLogical.com/coffee
http://www.ieLogical.com/coffee
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Jake_G
- Team HB
You alright there, Ian?
That's a boisterous response, even for your standards.
Read Linda's first post. I'll make it easy for you to do so:
Enter the new player, which is a medium-roast espresso blend. We don't know the yield, but let's assume it is within the established "normal" ratio range, but the shot "started out slow, but then the stream of espresso came out a little faster than I would like." So, assuming Linda's normal shots behave as one would assume and pick up the pace and then stabilize, this new coffee is clearly stabilizing at a faster flow rate, even though the ratio and total shot time is otherwise inline with other coffees.
Linda has noted that she can choke her machine with the grinder. And is simply asking what strategies she might use to achieve a slower flow throughout the shot with this particular coffee, which is behaving differently than other coffees she is used to working with. Not a longer shot time, just a more steady flow rate, where it doesn't go from super slow to super fast, but something that looks more like the "slow and steady" shots that other coffees typically display when pulled on the same equipment.
Adding a few tenths of a gram is a fine suggestion. Performing a nickel test to see how much headspace is available to experiment with dose is a better suggestion.
I wholeheartedly agree that taste is all that matters. But watery texture is certainly part of the subject quality of taste and it is clear that Linda is looking for tips and tricks to take a coffee that tends to flow faster than others and calm the puck resistance curve down a bit. If doing so improves the taste, then we have a winning solution. Fair?
Flow a teensy bit faster than the ridged HQ14 basket from EPNW, which is one of the "slowest-flowing" baskets on the market right now.
Cheers!
- Jake
That's a boisterous response, even for your standards.
Read Linda's first post. I'll make it easy for you to do so:
So you can see, normal process yields a ratio range of 1:1.7-1:2 in 27-28s and one can reasonably assume that the flow rate throughout the shot is relatively steady on these shots.chanty 77 wrote:Trying a different blend of beans that is a medium roast. After a few sink shots, was pretty happy with the outcome (flavor) on the drinkable ones. On most blends I use, temp is anywhere from 199° to 202°. Grams in on most blends is anywhere from 16.5g to 18g, stopping the shot between 27-28 seconds out, weighing (out) usually 31-33g.
On this newer blend, 201° temp, 17g, 25 seconds out. Started out slow, but then stream of espresso came out a little faster than I would like. I"m wondering if I coarsened the grind and added more grams if that would thicken & slow the stream? I hope this makes sense. Thanks.
(Barrington Gold roast)
Enter the new player, which is a medium-roast espresso blend. We don't know the yield, but let's assume it is within the established "normal" ratio range, but the shot "started out slow, but then the stream of espresso came out a little faster than I would like." So, assuming Linda's normal shots behave as one would assume and pick up the pace and then stabilize, this new coffee is clearly stabilizing at a faster flow rate, even though the ratio and total shot time is otherwise inline with other coffees.
Linda has noted that she can choke her machine with the grinder. And is simply asking what strategies she might use to achieve a slower flow throughout the shot with this particular coffee, which is behaving differently than other coffees she is used to working with. Not a longer shot time, just a more steady flow rate, where it doesn't go from super slow to super fast, but something that looks more like the "slow and steady" shots that other coffees typically display when pulled on the same equipment.
Adding a few tenths of a gram is a fine suggestion. Performing a nickel test to see how much headspace is available to experiment with dose is a better suggestion.
I wholeheartedly agree that taste is all that matters. But watery texture is certainly part of the subject quality of taste and it is clear that Linda is looking for tips and tricks to take a coffee that tends to flow faster than others and calm the puck resistance curve down a bit. If doing so improves the taste, then we have a winning solution. Fair?
It sure is! But the superfine mesh on the bottom tends to make it sMad Scientist wrote:Is the IMS Superfine basket an example of a tampered basket offering a more steady flow rate compared to a straight sided basket?
Flow a teensy bit faster than the ridged HQ14 basket from EPNW, which is one of the "slowest-flowing" baskets on the market right now.
I think that's a great idea. Are you familiar with the nickel test to determine how much headspace you have to work with? Just drop a coin on top of a tamped puck and lock it into the group then pull it out and tip the coin off. If it leaves no mark on the puck, you have ample headspace to add a half a gram or more to your puck without any issues. If you have a light witness mark on the puck, you can maybe add a few tenths of a gram, but not much more. If the coin is buried in the puck, you're already dosing too much, and you could find, somewhat paradoxically, that decreasing your dose could stabilize the flow of the shot.chanty 77 wrote:If I let it go longer, it tastes blander & "thin" (if that makes sense). That's why I wonder if I loosen the grind & add more grams of beans--if that would do the trick. Maybe from 17.3g to 18.3g?? It's hard to explain on my grinder if one doesn't have this grinder---but it is at 0 now. Some of my blends go between the 1 & 0---then end up at 0 (finer) as the days go by. I'm thinking of coarsening it to between the 1 & 0 & trying more beans to see what happens with the flow.
Cheers!
- Jake
LMWDP #704
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