Using a Mazzer Robur w/doser, I may not "need" to WDT at all. But I still do it on every shot. It's been part of my routine for years now, and only requires a few seconds.

For information:
I single dose, often changing coffees during a session
For WDT (or no WDT), I always use a dosing funnel for cleanliness and I find it greatly reduces stray grounds and helps me keep my grinder area clean.
I home roast, but have similar results with pro roasted coffees

Maybe it isn't required, but it does ensure that virtually every shot starts evenly across the basket. For the few seconds it may add to my prep time, it saves me any frustration from obviously flawed shots and also saves me cleanup time around the grinder area.

Yes Tony, the only thing I did different was to add some beans to the hopper. Thought was change 1 variable at a time if possible and see what happens.

Changing only one variable at a time, literally, makes mechanically unsound shots.
The grind setting is different at the same dose for hopper-full vs. single-dose. If all you did was add weight to the beans you ground, and the setting was appropriate for single-dosing. You've made a completely different shot. If you're going to compare hopper-full vs. single-dose you have to change the grind level to suit each type.

However, my point still stands. Forget the hopper feeding, go back to single-dosing and WDT to your hearts content. Why not? Is it horrible? I guess you could figure out a different way to even distribute the dose...

Spitz.me wrote:I have seen Dan mention that using WDT makes the outcome taste differently, in a bad way. (correct me if I'm not remembering incorrectly).

Dan is indeed the origin of the front loading hypothesis:

HB wrote:For what it's worth, I've noted that lots of WDT stirring or settling the grounds will product "front loaded" espressos where the first third of the extraction is emphasized. For some blends that's not a bad thing, especially if you like intense chocolate notes in your lattes. It tends to throw off the balance of straight espressos, at least for the equipment I use most. That's one reason I use the WDT sparingly, even if the grinder distribution is less than perfect.

I agree with Dan on most things, but not this. There are many alternative explanations, including the most obvious: a more even distribution produces less channeling and a different extraction.

Tony,

Changing only one variable at a time, literally, makes mechanically unsound shots.
The grind setting is different at the same dose for hopper-full vs. single-dose. If all you did was add weight to the beans you ground, and the setting was appropriate for single-dosing. You've made a completely different shot. If you're going to compare hopper-full vs. single-dose you have to change the grind level to suit each type.

However, my point still stands. Forget the hopper feeding, go back to single-dosing and WDT to your hearts content. Why not? Is it horrible? I guess you could figure out a different way to even distribute the dose...

Your second point first. Your right. It's not that bad, and it works. My whole thought with this is I feel I'm lacking somewhere in my process by having to use the WDT. Just looking to improve my technique.

Your second:

you have to change the grind level to suit each type.

If I'm reading you right, your saying with just doing my normal procedure, only changing the volume of beans in the hopper, I need to adjust the coffee level in the basket? Do I understand that correctly?

Tom, Tony is right that when using a hopper of beans, you'll have to adjust slightly coarser to get the same yield in the same amount of time as the equivalent single dose, otherwise it is as if you took your single dosed shot and adjusted it noticeably finer. The amount of coffee in the basket should remain unchanged. Only change the grind setting to compensate here.

I respect the opinions of both Dan and Jim, but because I haven't done any blind tasting, I can't say one way or another. When I did single dose and WDT and the shot came out as it should, I remember it tasted good. Like Tom, I wanted to streamline my routine and get rid of WDT. Of course, there is no necessity to get rid of it, and if you don't mind doing it, it is proven to work and overcome shortcomings in routine and/or equipment. I just didn't care for the extra tool and extra step and I wanted to see if I could improve my skills to the point of not needing WDT. The one thing I do know for sure is that I have found the ground coffee from a hopper fed grinder to be noticeably more forgiving than a single dosed shot. It seems that most people agree that more fines are created using a hopper and I'd propose that this factor is what makes the shot more forgiving. Again Tony is right, using a hopper will NOT improve the distribution. It is still important to be mindful of that and get a nice centered mound of coffee. You can overfill and swipe the top, but I don't do that. Just my normal dose (measured on output. adjusted as necessary) and tamp. With this same care, single dosing often needs that WDT to get it just right, but with a hopper, I have been able to just tamp it straight down and get nice, consistent shots. Clumping is another issue. I get some clumps from the Super Jolly, but they are not densely packed clumps and I haven't found them to be an issue for me.

As usual: my gear, my location, my coffee, my techniques, my experience. I have no proof to offer over the internet, so either take my word for it, try it yourself, or none of the above. Everyone else's mileage may vary.

Your Goal: Get the coffee flowing at the same rate using both types of preps. i.e 18g dry dose and 30g in the cup in 28s.

That could be, depending on your preference of taste for the coffee, decreasing the dose OR increasing the grind size when going from single-dose to full hopper OR a little of both?

Single-dosing requires a finer grind level than grinding with a full hopper.

I personally don't like adding weight to my beans. I've tried having a weight on my beans and I've found that, for some reason, I have an easier time adjusting for taste without any weight on the beans. YMMV

Thanks Jonny,
I will go a little coarser in a minute here and see how it goes.

deshi135 wrote:....
So, this morning my first attempt was to grind my usual single dose worth. Tried to be conscious of grounds hitting the middle of the basket. leveled, tapped, added the rest of the grounds. Tried the nutation move to assure evenness. The pull looked horrible. One sided, quickly blonding and so on.
....

Ooooh boy...

This is not what you saw Scottie Callaghan do, now does he? Unless you reckoned you can improve on his technique, eh? LOL

I'm not trying to bust your chops, Tom. But help us helping you by at least trying what we are suggesting. Then we can follow up on your results and give corrections to further your progress. You are only confusing yourself further by doing what you're doing.

Will you please try to pull a couple of shots doing exactly what Scottie does?

La Dan,
I will watch the vid again and give it a shot. Just got back from a bean run so I can start fresh tomorrow. 6 shots tonight plus a comp one from the roaster at the shop. I feel like I can drive these pineapples to Hawaii!