So this 30 second extraction thing...

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Postby randomorbit » Feb 09, 2017, 2:46 pm

I know it's a guideline, not a rule, but I'm finding that I'm a lot happier with the flavor of the shots produced in the 40-45 second range. I can get an OK shot at 30 second extraction time sometimes, but 40 is much better, and generally I'd be more inclined to drink a 1 minute shot than most 30 second ones.

It's not just my machine either as I'm finding this on my Gaggia at home as well as the La Spaz S1 2 group at work. Lately at home I've taken to doing 20gram doses that extract to 40 grams give or take a couple in 40-50 seconds, and those are tasting really good, and though the doses on the La Spaz have to be much lower, and I haven't weighed the shot, I can say a similarly slow flow rate gives a much better flavored shot for me on the La Spaz as well. When I say better, I mean 30 second shots are at best just on the edge of sour, but not in a bad way, so I guess you could say they are balanced, but at that point the fuller flavor notes, sweetness, nuttiness etc. don't seem to have come out yet.

So what's the deal with that 30 second goal? I know it's meant to be flexible and adjusted to taste, but to me, based upon experimenting over the last several months, it seems more like the minimum, and not the ideal.

Then of course there is the argument of when to start the timer. Some people say start at the first drop, and some say start the timer when you hit the switch, but all seem to say the same 30 seconds. It seems to me a good flow rate starts with the first drops around the 7-9 second mark, so if I'm starting the timer at that point, I guess 30-35 seconds is pretty close, but again I find it confusing that everyone seems to say 30 seconds, even if they can't agree on when to start the timer.

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Postby Bill33525 » Feb 09, 2017, 4:28 pm

Tried to find the genesis of the 30 sec shot myself but most are quoting Illy 1995. ... so&f=false

Perhaps the reference refers to "pressure applied for 30 seconds" since Slayer shots can go 60 seconds or more, 1/2 of which is preinfusion.

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Postby LukeFlynn » Feb 09, 2017, 4:40 pm

I think it largely depends on the coffee.

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Postby brianl » Feb 09, 2017, 5:02 pm

I generally prefer the 20-25 second shot.

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Postby Sideshow » replying to brianl » Feb 09, 2017, 5:17 pm

My experience is similar. I find that 23-25 seems to best match my blonding/output goals, i.e. 14-16 gram dose with a 23-28 shot. In fact, my shots are normally on the lower end of that range. If I go longer (well past the obvious blonding point), I tend to get more bitter, over-extracted shots. So for me, I'm finding that I'm normally pulling something in the 23-25 second range.

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Postby gr2020 » Feb 09, 2017, 7:20 pm

LukeFlynn wrote:I think it largely depends on the coffee.

This is what I've found as well. Looking back over my notes, I see some coffees that I didn't like at all when they ran over 28-30s, and others that were absolutely stellar at 45-50s.

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Postby Gaius » Feb 09, 2017, 7:30 pm

I have to say I agree! Whenever i manage to pull a 40second shoot i am always saying to myself oh sh** there your sink shoot and then i try it and i always end up drinking whole (20g dose) shoot and really really enjoy it, much more than quicker 20-23sec shoot. I am solely drinking SO lighter roasts.

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Postby marlodmb » Feb 09, 2017, 7:37 pm

I'll try a longer pull. I'm half way through my redbird 5lb bag (Feb 1st roasted) and yet to get anything decent yet. Just got another 5lb bag of redbird today so I can keep the coffee the same while figuring this out..

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Postby RyanJE » replying to marlodmb » Feb 09, 2017, 7:52 pm

Try this. I have an e61 as well which has a 6sec pre infuse...18 gram dose with 27 output in about 34-38 seconds or so (or even more). Timing is misleading. Especially when factoring coffee and roast style, brew ratio and pump type/pre infuse..

It also doesn't really consider your shot type. You have to grind finer to get a properly extracted 1/1.5 ratio than you do to get a properly extracted 1-2 ratio. Which means the 1.5 ratio should take longer. Either way you slice it, extraction in the ideal range is the goal, not time.

Right now it's taking 36 seconds for me to pull good 1.5 ratio 19-20% EY shots of verve street level..
I drink two shots before I drink two shots, then I drink two more....

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Postby jwCrema » Feb 10, 2017, 12:25 am

marlodmb wrote:I'll try a longer pull. I'm half way through my redbird 5lb bag (Feb 1st roasted) and yet to get anything decent yet. Just got another 5lb bag of redbird today so I can keep the coffee the same while figuring this out..

We love Redbird and order 5 lb bags for my wife and I. I open the bag and let it sit 5 days before we use it. I never look at the roast date - (it has it printed on the bag?). If it is too early my wife says it tastes like straw.

My boiler pressure is @ .9 bar, and I am currently pulling it at 9 bar, 17.5 g dose, about 40 seconds. Put the latte in the refrigerator for 3 hours and becomes a monster chocolate bomb.

This about the same recipe that I used when I had an e61 as well. I never found the same consistency in finding this flavor profile until I upgraded my grinder. The Major, in single dose mode makes me happy. I am sure there are other grinders that are as good or better than the Major - I'd put the quality of the grind ahead of the number of seconds with a range. I.e., in the range of 40-45 seconds taste will be pretty consistent