Hello,
I purchased a Bezzera Mitica machine a while back with the intent of learning to make good (or at least decent) espresso. Milk drinks for my wife will come later assuming I can ever get the espresso to be decent. I have read numerous threads on here (and elsewhere) regarding temperature management, grind, etc... and have tried in vain to get this to work. I'm sure it's not the machine but my lack of barista skills. I am hoping someone here might be able to provide me with the "aha!" that I seem to be missing.

Anyway, here's the background. I live at about 1 mile above sea level. I'm using a Eureka Atom grinder. I do have an EricS grouphead thermometer.

Yesterday I tried again. After reading many posts, my regimen looked something like this:

1. Turned on machine and let it idle for 1 hour. GH temp was at 204.5F
2. Did a cooling flush for 19s, temp was at 197F
3. Ground my beans and loaded the PF with 17g
4. Waited a total of about 180s before pulling shot. Temp was stabilized at 194F
5. Shot time was 25s and I yielded a bit less than 40g of coffee. Watched the temp of the GH during the shot...started out at 209 and dropped to about 204 by the end. Shot seemed bitter.
6. Did a 2-3s cleaning flush. Adjusted the grinder and put together another shot.
7. Waited about 120s before pulling the next shot. GH temp was stable at around 194F.
8. Shot time was about 30s and yielded 30g so I adjusted the grind a bit too fine. Temp at GH during shot was between 207-204F

I tried other combinations of longer flushes etc but could never get a shot to run at less than 203F. All shots were bitter.

So at this point, I'm not certain that I'm approaching this correctly. I've really gotten hung up on temperature but am wondering if I should step back and look at my grind a bit more. Not sure if it matters, but my pucks were all sloppy wet. They always have been on this machine (barista's fault no doubt). So my thinking going forward is to step back and start back at the beginning with the grind. Pull shot after shot not worrying about temp until I can consistently get a 25s pull that yields 1:2. From there, worry about the temp profile. I'm actually thinking of just buying a load of relatively inexpensive coffee beans and just pull shot after shot while playing with the grinder with no attention to the temperatures.

I do think I have a problem on my temps but at the moment, I'm following what I've read to work on this machine from a number of posts so can only assume I'm having an issue elsewhere.

Sorry for the long winded moan but I'm really getting frustrated. I'd appreciate any feedback or advice from the forum. Since I'm working from home these days, I can try new things pretty much at will. I looked for anyone available in my area for training but have not had any success on that front.

Cheers.

I agree that you really should change only one variable at the time. Be it your grind setting, your dosing, your brew recipe, even your way of distributing the coffee or the brew temperature. Having said that, the boiling temperature of water where you live is closer to the target brew temperature than it would be at sea level. If you wait for 2-3 minutes after flushing, the water temperature will rebound and the initial stream of water that meets your coffee might just be at or near boiling before pressure starts to build. Why not prepare your coffee upfront, flush and not wait the 2-3 minutes, but brew right away; that should reduce the peak in temperature early on. See where that leads you. Then you can try and reduce / increase flush times, but stick to a "flush and go" and see where that leads.

Dublin wrote:Milk drinks for my wife will come later assuming I can ever get the espresso to be decent

Why wait? Milk covers up all sorts of sins! No need to waste the coffee if someone will drink it. You can smell and taste the shot and if it's not very good turn it into a cappuccino or latte for the wife. I do this frequently while dialing in coffee. I have a starting point, the wife has a latte, and no wasted beans.

I tried other combinations of longer flushes etc but could never get a shot to run at less than 203F. All shots were bitter.

So at this point, I'm not certain that I'm approaching this correctly. I've really gotten hung up on temperature but am wondering if I should step back and look at my grind a bit more. Not sure if it matters, but my pucks were all sloppy wet. They always have been on this machine (barista's fault no doubt).

You can't tell much from the puck after a shot ("puckology"), so I wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes that can be a result of a fine grind, but also maybe not. You have a routine down for temp, so stick with that even though it might not be where you want it. I would focus on grind, if your espresso's too bitter, you could try same dose (17g) and grind coarser. It's going to make the shot quicker, but if the espresso tastes better, who cares. If it's better, but still too bitter, go even coarser. If it's close and repeatable, I would then try a cooler shot from there. DeGaulle's rec of grind, flush, pull seems like a good idea.

Lastly, as someone who lives at 8,000 feet, I worried about brew temps and flash boiling (197F here) for far too long. When you have a loaded portafilter locked in, it won't boil above the puck. Get the temp where you want it and pull the shot

Hope that helps!

Edit: I got lost in my own thoughts and totally forgot, if nothing works try different beans! We get so focused on the minutiae sometimes and forget the bigger picture. We can change everything a thousand different ways, but beans have a limit to the flavors they hold. It could simply be those beans aren't for you, and something lighter or different might be the solution

Dublin wrote:{snip}
So at this point, I'm not certain that I'm approaching this correctly. I've really gotten hung up on temperature but am wondering if I should step back and look at my grind a bit more. Not sure if it matters, but my pucks were all sloppy wet. They always have been on this machine (barista's fault no doubt). So my thinking going forward is to step back and start back at the beginning with the grind. Pull shot after shot not worrying about temp until I can consistently get a 25s pull that yields 1:2. From there, worry about the temp profile. I'm actually thinking of just buying a load of relatively inexpensive coffee beans and just pull shot after shot while playing with the grinder with no attention to the temperatures.

I do think I have a problem on my temps but at the moment, I'm following what I've read to work on this machine from a number of posts so can only assume I'm having an issue elsewhere.

Sorry for the long winded moan but I'm really getting frustrated. I'd appreciate any feedback or advice from the forum. Since I'm working from home these days, I can try new things pretty much at will. I looked for anyone available in my area for training but have not had any success on that front.

Believe it or not... most of us have been where you are at one time or another. When you consider all the variables i.e., the coffee, coffees age, the grinder, grind texture, dosage amount, basket size, tamp-or lack of, humidity, water, water hardness, altitude, water ph level, water debit, brew temperature... just to name a few... it's a wonder any of us succeed. (not really) it just takes patience and determination.

As you guessed and as others have suggested... only change one variable at a time. Get a notepad and take notes: record your settings, doses, time etc! I typically set a ballpark brew temp then forget about it. (You can tweak the temp after you hone in the rest of the variables.) Next... I calibrate my grinder to get the desired dose. (HINT: Get a scale if you don't already have one) Once I get the proper brew ratio based on my calibrated grinder I stop fiddling with the grinder and start tasting some some shots by tweaking the brew volume/weight up or down slightly tasting each shots as I go and recording the the results. Anyway... if you haven't already done so do yourself a favor and read Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste] by another_jim.

A similar thread of "espresso frustration" was posted just days ago... some good tips and suggestions were offered... your can check it out >here

What you are experiencing is very common with an HX. If your results were on my machine everything would be A-OK. However, every HX machine is a little unique and will show different temps on the group for a 200F brew water extraction. Yours might be a tad hot, but I"m guessing it is good.

When you start to pull a shot on an HX, the temp will spike up.. so it is common to see 207F as a spike. This is because the first bit of water in the TS is hot.. However, the E61 smooths out these spikes and the water going to the puck does not see this spike. So don't worry about this high temp. Since the thermometer is a ways from your coffee, there will still be a drop from the thermometer to the puck. In my Pro500 HX, about 15 s into the pull my thermometer is about 5F higher than the exit water and at 25s it is about 3F higher.. So a typically good extraction at 200F would show the following temps on my thermometer.. My group idles about 200F.. (you idle at 194F might just be normal for that machine). When I pull, my temp spikes to 207-208.. then it drops and at 10-15s is about 204.. it ends about 203.. Measured with a SCACE, the brew water was 200F within 1F degree. So I think what you are seeing is pretty normal.

The bitter taste could be due to many things.. but I'm guessing your brew water temp is likely okay. However, the only way to be 100% sure is to measure it with a borrowed SCACE or something equivalent.

A 19s flush is really a long flush. You should not need to flush that long. You could get some Walmart Lavazza beans to play with. I did this when starting.. I always stopped my extraction at 2:1.. so 17g in, I always stopped at 34g and changed the grind to give me the extraction from about 25-35 s. I had to buy a bottomless PF to find out if I was getting channeling.. You can't tell with a double-spouted.. If you don't have one.. buy one.. you'll need it. You could having issues with distribution and you may find that the channeling is causing water to run fast through the puck in only one area and you get a sour taste, but at the beginning, I confused sour with bitter..

Espresso has a certain learning curve so don't get frustrated.. it takes time.. but you'll work out the kinks.. If you know anyone local who is good with espresso extraction, that would be the fastest way to debug stuff.

Took me a year to characterize my HX machine and have confidence in my brew water temp.

Folks,
Many thanks for the suggestions and encouragement. You've given me several things to think about and try.

DeGaulle wrote:I agree that you really should change only one variable at the time. Be it your grind setting, your dosing, your brew recipe, even your way of distributing the coffee or the brew temperature. Having said that, the boiling temperature of water where you live is closer to the target brew temperature than it would be at sea level. If you wait for 2-3 minutes after flushing, the water temperature will rebound and the initial stream of water that meets your coffee might just be at or near boiling before pressure starts to build. Why not prepare your coffee upfront, flush and not wait the 2-3 minutes, but brew right away; that should reduce the peak in temperature early on. See where that leads you. Then you can try and reduce / increase flush times, but stick to a "flush and go" and see where that leads.

I have latched onto the Flush-n-Wait based on the posts I've read from users with the same machine (or it's sister, the Magica). I determined the general feeling from them is that Flush-n-Go doesn't work all that well. That being said, I think I'll stick with my routine until I'm confident I've got my grind down. Then experiment with the FNG. Thank you.

mountmustache wrote:You can't tell much from the puck after a shot ("puckology"), so I wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes that can be a result of a fine grind, but also maybe not. You have a routine down for temp, so stick with that even though it might not be where you want it. I would focus on grind, if your espresso's too bitter, you could try same dose (17g) and grind coarser. It's going to make the shot quicker, but if the espresso tastes better, who cares. If it's better, but still too bitter, go even coarser. If it's close and repeatable, I would then try a cooler shot from there. DeGaulle's rec of grind, flush, pull seems like a good idea.

Lastly, as someone who lives at 8,000 feet, I worried about brew temps and flash boiling (197F here) for far too long. When you have a loaded portafilter locked in, it won't boil above the puck. Get the temp where you want it and pull the shot

Hope that helps!

Edit: I got lost in my own thoughts and totally forgot, if nothing works try different beans! We get so focused on the minutiae sometimes and forget the bigger picture. We can change everything a thousand different ways, but beans have a limit to the flavors they hold. It could simply be those beans aren't for you, and something lighter or different might be the solution

Thank you. I think I have come to very similar conclusions particularly with regards to ignoring the temps/altitude/etc... for now and just concern myself with the grind. Speaking of beans, I realized this morning I only have some medium roast that's been sitting in the freezer....I'll go get some dark roast this week as I believe it's generally a bit more forgiving. Thank you.

Don Task wrote:Believe it or not... most of us have been where you are at one time or another. When you consider all the variables i.e., the coffee, coffees age, the grinder, grind texture, dosage amount, basket size, tamp-or lack of, humidity, water, water hardness, altitude, water ph level, water debit, brew temperature... just to name a few... it's a wonder any of us succeed. (not really) it just takes patience and determination.

As you guessed and as others have suggested... only change one variable at a time. Get a notepad and take notes: record your settings, doses, time etc! I typically set a ballpark brew temp then forget about it. (You can tweak the temp after you hone in the rest of the variables.) Next... I calibrate my grinder to get the desired dose. (HINT: Get a scale if you don't already have one) Once I get the proper brew ratio based on my calibrated grinder I stop fiddling with the grinder and start tasting some some shots by tweaking the brew volume/weight up or down slightly tasting each shots as I go and recording the the results. Anyway... if you haven't already done so do yourself a favor and read Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste] by another_jim.

A similar thread of "espresso frustration" was posted just days ago... some good tips and suggestions were offered... your can check it out >here

Yes, I'm definitely on the bandwagon to focus on grind. I do have a scale and weigh both the dose and the resultant shot so can easily see how things are going. Appreciate the link you posted putting me in the company of many others with the frustration!

Jeff wrote:In my experience with HXs, each behaves slightly differently, even among the same model. Figuring out actual brew temperature requires something like a Scace. A decade ago I "calibrated" my machine and found that the flush-and-wait approach gave me tighter repeatability. For my machine, flushing to 195 F and pulling at around 196 was my "normal" temperature. I also found that the first flush after warm-up needed to be deeper, using 185 and then pulling at my desired temperature. Again, every machine is different! Those numbers are probably in the ballpark, but you'll have to tune them to your machine. Later...

Pick one set of numbers and keep them until you dial in grind for a coffee.

Once you have "the best" at that temperature, you can explore what changing temperature does for that coffee. In my experience, a 2-4 F change is needed for a noticeable change.

If you keep dropping the temperature, generally the shot will turn sour at some point. Raising the temperature too far doesn't really "burn" the coffee, but the lack of acidity to balance the bitterness usually makes it overly bitter. Eventually you'll find the "sweet spot" (range) where things are balanced for that coffee.

Get the grind dialed in first. Temperature is a minor tweak by comparison.

I'm going to continue with the flush and wait approach for now. But I really like your idea of dropping the temp until you get sour, then work back up to find the best tasting shot. That will definitely be on the list once I get my grind dialed in. For me at the moment, after my flush, the machine stabilizes at about 194F for 30-40s then starts climbing back up so it's pretty close to what you've got. Appreciate the help.

Bluenoser wrote:What you are experiencing is very common with an HX. If your results were on my machine everything would be A-OK. However, every HX machine is a little unique and will show different temps on the group for a 200F brew water extraction. Yours might be a tad hot, but I"m guessing it is good.

When you start to pull a shot on an HX, the temp will spike up.. so it is common to see 207F as a spike. This is because the first bit of water in the TS is hot.. However, the E61 smooths out these spikes and the water going to the puck does not see this spike. So don't worry about this high temp. Since the thermometer is a ways from your coffee, there will still be a drop from the thermometer to the puck. In my Pro500 HX, about 15 s into the pull my thermometer is about 5F higher than the exit water and at 25s it is about 3F higher.. So a typically good extraction at 200F would show the following temps on my thermometer.. My group idles about 200F.. (you idle at 194F might just be normal for that machine). When I pull, my temp spikes to 207-208.. then it drops and at 10-15s is about 204.. it ends about 203.. Measured with a SCACE, the brew water was 200F within 1F degree. So I think what you are seeing is pretty normal.

The bitter taste could be due to many things.. but I'm guessing your brew water temp is likely okay. However, the only way to be 100% sure is to measure it with a borrowed SCACE or something equivalent.

A 19s flush is really a long flush. You should not need to flush that long. You could get some Walmart Lavazza beans to play with. I did this when starting.. I always stopped my extraction at 2:1.. so 17g in, I always stopped at 34g and changed the grind to give me the extraction from about 25-35 s. I had to buy a bottomless PF to find out if I was getting channeling.. You can't tell with a double-spouted.. If you don't have one.. buy one.. you'll need it. You could having issues with distribution and you may find that the channeling is causing water to run fast through the puck in only one area and you get a sour taste, but at the beginning, I confused sour with bitter..

Espresso has a certain learning curve so don't get frustrated.. it takes time.. but you'll work out the kinks.. If you know anyone local who is good with espresso extraction, that would be the fastest way to debug stuff.

Took me a year to characterize my HX machine and have confidence in my brew water temp.

A year? Hmmm, this is going to be a real test of patience, haha. Thanks for reminding me that the temp of the water hitting the grounds is ~5F cooler than Erics thermometer reads. I had forgotten that and in my head was thinking it would only be a degree or two. This puts things in a much different light for me. But as you said, and everyone else so far, I am going to focus on my grind. I'll take your advice on the Lavazza/WM beans and work from there. No use putting expensive beans into my septic while I try to get a handle on this. I do have a bottomless PF and so far, have been happy that I'm seeing the telltale signs of a good tamp etc... No real channeling to speak of although with the pucks being sopping wet, I can't verify that after the pull. And as for the initial 19s flush, this is just a number I gleaned from a number of posts from users with the same machine. I'll play with that down the road but for now, it's going to be all about the grind I think. Once dialed in and repeatable, then I'll move on to the next variable. Appreciate the help!

Jeff wrote:The temperature offset between the EricS thermometer in the passageway and the brew temperature will depend on where you are in the temperature cycle. It can be hotter or cooler during that cycle as you've just cooled the group head and HX water and they heat up at different rates. At least with a common rhythm to your shots, if you pull at 2° hotter on the thermometer, you're probably getting around 2° hotter brew water.
.

Yes.. I always do either no flush, or a flush-n-wait .. and so my E61 is always a bit cooler than the water in the TS. Sounds a bit complicated but really why using a consistent workflow is important. I borrowed a SCACE to really confirm what the brew water would be for my workflow and found that whatever my idle temp was on my Erics was what the brew water would be.. And like Jeff said.. that is now all I worry about. But each HX machine is slightly different because I think the TS loop is a very finicky system and recirculating rates, restrictor diameters, volume of TS .. all differ from one HX machine to another.

With the exception of very light roasts, I haven't seen brew temperature have a big impact on taste. Yield (ratio) has a much bigger impact.

I would suggest you stick with a consistent flushing regimen, and then experiment with different yields. There is nothing sacred about 1:2, it's a recommended starting point, not the end goal. Your best tasting shot might be shorter or longer. In general, too large a ratio will give a bitter shot, while too small will be sour. Hopefully you can find a sweet spot in the middle. Once you find it, you can experiment with different grinds to further improve the taste.