Hi all,

I am now able able to dial in a specific beans and get a 8/10 with the following recipe.

Setup: NZ and Robot
Bean: medium dark
18g in and 45g out (1:2.5)
Water temp: 95c
Brew time: 15s preinfusion + 30s pull time
Pull time pressure: 6 bar

I would like to try on 1:3 and 1:2 and 1:1 ratio. Let's say if I am now going to try 1:1 next, which of the following approach sounds more correct to you?

A) Grind finer (with everything else unchanged) so that I can maintain the 15s+30s brew time; or

B) reduce pressure to say 3 bar (with everything else unchanged) so that I can maintain the 15s+30s brew time; or

C) leave everything unchanged such that the brew time will be significantly decreased say to 15s+10s because of the shorter shot.

Appreciate your thoughts.

I would use option A.

There is an old adage known as Al's rule that sums it up nicely:
How Al's Rule Saved My Life

This is old enough (from 2005!) that the shot volumes are expressed as volumes, rather than weights, so there is some shift to be expected as you think about crema volume and all that business, but the general idea is that shorter shots (ristretto) need a bit more contact time to extract the same as a normalle, and longer shots (lungo) need a little less time.

This is all directionally correct, but of course you need to taste your shots and dial in accordingly. Check out Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste and actually follow the steps.

I think it is common that once folks reach a certain level of competency with espresso, we tend to forget about going back and actually dialing in by taste. We get to the point where we can make a good looking shot that fits the basic recipe we're told we should be enjoying in the appropriate amount of time and then forget to intentionally experiment on either side of it to figure out whether or not we actually prefer the taste.

I know I'm guilty!

Lately I've been intentionally dosing a little less in my baskets and feeling out the subtle differences to retrain my palate. It's a great process and really helps you work your way through exploring the range of outcomes from a given bean.

Cheers!

- Jake

I'd go with option A. As Jake said you need the extra contact time to get your extraction where you'd want it, but the puck compresses at about 4ish bar, so you if you brew at 3 you're not really brewing espresso and you won't get decent body out of it. The other thing you could do is increase your dose a little too/instead to increase contact time and maintain similar pressure.

Wow.

I'm going to pretend like I didn't just edit my post to say option A

Thanks both for the inputs. They are very helpful.

In the Al approach, it says:
"when timing the shot count the dwell time, the time between turning on the pump and seeing the first drop, at 50%"

So, if mine is 15s preinfusion + 30s pull time, that means my brew time is 37.5s?

Also, I guess my preinfusion is kind of different. I add pressure of 2bar and when I see the coffee starts to wet the bottom of the PF, I hold there for 15s. Is it okay to do so?

The Al approach is also quite shocking to me. As I was just thinking to change grind size to maintain the brew time, but never thought going that far to grind finer to the point to brew longer time with less liquid. More liquid, less time. Less liquid, more time. I need some unlearning here.

@jake, when you said you intentionally reduce the dose. How much are you dosing? What difference did you notice after the change? With Al rule, do you still stick with 30a rule regardless of dose? I read Clive YouTube earlier and they also recommend a thinner puck for more even extraction between the top and bottom of the puck, but to avoid too thin to risk channeling.

Also, I read a well know coffee blog (sorry I forget the source) that encourage as much brew ratio as possible without going to far to lose too much texture and then adjust grind size for taste. So, if you find 1:3 provide you with enough texture that you like, you should always stay with 1:3. Then you adjust the grind size for taste. The theory behind was trying to extract all or as much favour as it could by having not water passing through the puck. I was actually a 1:2 person but I changed to 1:2.5 and 1:2.75 because of that. I am currently having some success getting good taste but I also want to experiment different ratio to see if I am missing something.

Per Jake_G, it can be easy to roll on auto, for sure. Usually I spend enough time with one coffee that I try a few ratios and then keep notes (dose, ratio, general temp) on what I liked best for next time.

It may be a terrible, terrible method, but I often run the different ratios without much adjustment to the grind. I simply stop the shot earlier or later (and might adjust pre infusion times). For example, a 1:1 in 27 sec. and 1:2 in 42 sec are both in the ballpark. That gives me a sense if what I'm trying to do will be good, and then I adjust grind to fine-tune that result. I tend to do this with a fixed dose that works consistently with a specific basket before considering substantial dose (and/or basket) changes.

I was experiencing something similar today.

Shot #1
Niche setting: 16
Ratio: 2.5
Brew time: 59s
Taste: 9.0/10

I like the taste of shot #1. It was balanced, good texture and sweet, chocolate with very subtle and nice acidic. But I noticed that the brew time is too long to be ideal (aiming for 30s according to AI rule). So I grind coarser.

Shot #2
Niche setting: 16.5
Ratio: 2.5
Brew time: 38s
Taste: 8.0/10

With coarser setting, I noticed the sweetness is still there but the chocolate is gone. And the acidic and fruitiness (not in the taste note) becomes more prominent. I prefer shot#1 more.

Wonder whether the black this tell me directionally I should stick with 16.0 grind setting, or i should ignore the taste deterioration and keep going coarser to aim for the 30s and hopefully I will be surprising with the quality in cup?

I know I should follow my taste but doesn't 59s sound too far off to be right?

Yes, 59s is long. 45s happens sometimes. There's a lot going on for you. Time, dose, and other variables are up in the air. A few things stand out.

Only change one variable at a time.

I dose mainly to create the right headspace. Find the dose that works well in your machine with a given basket and stick there (at least for a while). Later, for different doses (more than a gram or two, up or down), use different baskets. For a given grind, higher dose =longer extraction, lower dose = shorter. Precision baskets (VST, etc.) allow faster flow with finer grinds, but make puck prep more finicky, and offer benefit mainly to lighter coffees.

Since you're using a medium-dark roast, shorter ratios are more likely your friend. As a start with a bean like that, I'd aim for a grind that gives a 1:1.3 in a reasonable amount of time. It would surprise me if a medium-dark coffee was at its best at 1:3.

Preinfusion time should not take longer than needed. Especially with a darker coffee. I'd try a higher pressure for preinfusion to shorten that time. Or start at 2 bar (kind to your puck) and quickly ramp to 3 or 4. When the basket is beaded evenly--or the first few drops hit your cup--ramp to your higher brew pressure.

Thanks @Mat-O-Matic for chime in.

Lot of great advices esp for the 1.3 and preinfusion that provides some solid baseline for me to explore further. Much appreciated.

What is your theory for adjusting the ratio? Do you find the initial part of the shot sour then sweet and the last bit is bitter? Will that be the guide for your to shorten/ lengthen the shot?

Two things are missing here: the objective and the roast level. What are you hoping to accomplish with the different brew ratios you're trying? What roast level are you pulling (very light, light, light-medium, medium, medium dark, dark, very dark?)

If you want to compare the strength of the drink while keeping the flavor profile as constant as possible, don't change the grind. Why? Because the grind setting has the greatest impact on flavor. If you change the grind, the coffee isn't going to taste the same. So, if you want a more concentrated cup (say, a 1:1 Ristretto), increase the dose and pull for as long as it takes to get the target weight (e.g., 18g in / 18g out.) Time isn't all that important. As long as the shot runs roughly 25-35 seconds or longer, you should be fine. If you want a less concentrated cup (say, a 1:3 Lungo), reduce the dose and pull for as long as it takes to get the target weight. Again, time isn't all that important.

Unfortunately, these instructions won't work for all roast levels. The Ristretto technique is likely to work best for a medium-dark, dark or very dark roast. It might work for a medium roast. With a light roast, the cup will probably be underextracted. Conversely, the Lungo technique is likely to work best for a light or light-medium roast, but will probably result in a bitter cup with darker roasts.

You can fix the sour or bitter problem by changing the grind (finer for high brew ratio, coarser for low brew ratio), but then you're into a different flavor profile.

Another way to experience the change in concentration while keeping the flavor profile the same is not to change the grind or dose and simply pull shorter for 1:1 and longer for 1:3. This is what Mat-O-Matic says he does, and I have it on good authority that this is also what Italian baristas do. If someone orders a Ristretto, they pull shorter. If someone orders a Lungo, they pull longer. That's it. No other changes. In a busy cafe, there isn't enough time to change the dose or grind, let alone dial in a new grind (and make sure the grind is set back for the barista next to you.) This probably works OK for Ristrettos pulled from the typical dark Italian roast, but the Lungos will probably be bitter.

OTOH, if your objective is to experience different levels of concentration, and a balanced shot (not sour, not bitter) is paramount, and you're OK with changes in the flavor profile, then a combination of changing the grind and dose for each brew ratio is the way to go.

Jake_G wrote:I think it is common that once folks reach a certain level of competency with espresso, we tend to forget about going back and actually dialing in by taste. We get to the point where we can make a good looking shot that fits the basic recipe we're told we should be enjoying in the appropriate amount of time and then forget to intentionally experiment on either side of it to figure out whether or not we actually prefer the taste.

I know I'm guilty!

I resemble that remark!

So true, so true, Jake. These days, I mostly pull my own roasts, which consist of similar beans roasted with the same profile to the same or similar color (light.) I grind very fine, only adjusting the grinder to make sure preinfusion lasts about 20 seconds and the shot runs maybe 45-60 seconds total. I rarely need to move the grind setting more than two ticks. Even more rarely do I play around with grind settings that produce different preinfusion and/or shot times. I never change the preinfusion flow rate from 3ml/sec.

In my defense, I roast six very small batches (50g) at a time, so I don't have a lot of extra beans for experimentation/optimization. These days I reserve any extra beans to compare different origins and roast levels. I guess if I mostly drank the same coffee/roast, I would spend more time dialing in the perfect cup.