What paper filter did you use? Mine speeds it up quite a lot (kafatek robot filters), so it sounds like you have a very dense filter!atao wrote:Quick update.
I adjusted LM pump pressure from 9.5 blind to about 7 blind.
Resulting extraction was a bit faster but with same total weight output, extraction % was largely similar.
I tightened the grind a full tick on the niche and pulled another shot and oddly enough the extraction % fell from 18.3 to about 17.8.
Paper filter on bottom of basket with the baseline grind setting slowed the shot way down and yielded a very slightly higher extraction%, 18.4, probably within noise.
Then I ran out of coffee
Puzzling extraction difference - Olympia Cremina vs. La Marzocco Linea Mini - Page 3
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lessthanjoey
- Supporter ♡
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pcofftenyo
The LMLM _has_ pre-infusion. When you first move the paddle from right to left there is a delay before the pump activates. In that interval that is appx 1 sec the machine introduces line level pressure water to the puck.atao wrote:Is there a sort of manual preinfusuion I should try, like pouring a bit of hot water on the bed before locking the portafilter?
2 things:
1-The app which may require a hardware/control board update if the machine is an early version, allows for the user to modify pre-infusion.
2-without the app or board change, the user can move the lever from off and on then back off again before the pump activates. Let puck swell a sec, repeat if desired or not, depending on results.
If you don't like the LMLM, I can find a home for it. Or the Cremina, for that matter.
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atao (original poster)
Yes, i'm well aware of this. I've said it a couple times in this thread that i don't have the hardware update.
Is it true that you can manually preinfuse by sliding the lever forward and backward? Doesn't that trigger the flush valve?
Is it true that you can manually preinfuse by sliding the lever forward and backward? Doesn't that trigger the flush valve?
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atao (original poster)
Ok, some interesting developments.
I had to go to a new coffee (Counter Culture Hologram).
New baseline measurements:
LM: 15.5g dose -> 35.4 out -> 17.8%
Cremina: 14.5 dose -> 37.2 out -> 20.1%
And this did make me realize that my ratios were quite different, with LM about 2.3 and Crem at 2.6.
So i pulled LM in similar ratio:
LM: 16.6 -> 41.7 ratio = 2.5 -> 18.1%
This only bumped up the extraction % a little. I realize i changed 2 things, but anyways, i hadn't seen much extraction drift with larger doses, so.
Here's the interesting experiment:
LM: 16.6 -> 41.6 but with pre-wetting (i pour about 1tsp cold water on puck and let it sit for 10 sec) -> 19.5%!
So, the pre-wetting took the extraction % up about 1.4%. That's rather significant.
I did try one shot with pre-wetting via the LM lever, where i prepare puck normally, and then instead of dumping cold water on the puck, i move the lever to the middle for a second, and then back to the OFF position and wait 10 seconds, then pull shot normally. This resulted in 19.1%, not quite as high as the cold water but still 1% higher.
So this leads me to think that i should be considering the programmable pre-infusion on the LMLM.
I haven't read those threads where people evaluate the pre-infusion. Is there any data there that either confirms or denies these observations above?
On a tangent, i'm all out of VST syringe filters. Anyone have a recommendation for an alternate source for them? Every time i buy them from VST i feel like i'm losing my shirt.
I had to go to a new coffee (Counter Culture Hologram).
New baseline measurements:
LM: 15.5g dose -> 35.4 out -> 17.8%
Cremina: 14.5 dose -> 37.2 out -> 20.1%
And this did make me realize that my ratios were quite different, with LM about 2.3 and Crem at 2.6.
So i pulled LM in similar ratio:
LM: 16.6 -> 41.7 ratio = 2.5 -> 18.1%
This only bumped up the extraction % a little. I realize i changed 2 things, but anyways, i hadn't seen much extraction drift with larger doses, so.
Here's the interesting experiment:
LM: 16.6 -> 41.6 but with pre-wetting (i pour about 1tsp cold water on puck and let it sit for 10 sec) -> 19.5%!
So, the pre-wetting took the extraction % up about 1.4%. That's rather significant.
I did try one shot with pre-wetting via the LM lever, where i prepare puck normally, and then instead of dumping cold water on the puck, i move the lever to the middle for a second, and then back to the OFF position and wait 10 seconds, then pull shot normally. This resulted in 19.1%, not quite as high as the cold water but still 1% higher.
So this leads me to think that i should be considering the programmable pre-infusion on the LMLM.
I haven't read those threads where people evaluate the pre-infusion. Is there any data there that either confirms or denies these observations above?
On a tangent, i'm all out of VST syringe filters. Anyone have a recommendation for an alternate source for them? Every time i buy them from VST i feel like i'm losing my shirt.
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jpender
atao wrote:On a tangent, i'm all out of VST syringe filters. Anyone have a recommendation for an alternate source for them? Every time i buy them from VST i feel like i'm losing my shirt.
I've used these and they work well enough. They are a little less expensive than the VST ones. There are cheaper syringe filters but I've read mixed reviews.
Some people use mini centrifuges. Careful tests (e.g. https://awasteof.coffee/2019/02/12/cent ... -espresso/) have been run that demonstrate that they work about as well as syringe filters. You can find used centrifuges on ebay. Even a new one can be had for under $200. They are a little more effort than a filter but still pretty easy to use. And having zero recurring costs has to be mighty tempting if you're using your refractometer frequently.
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atao (original poster)
I pivoted to Apollo from Counter Culture.
It has been a complete surprise to me that larger doses are yielding greater extraction percentages.
With a yield of about 2:1, my 18gr shots in a 20g VST are extracting only ~18-19% while my 19gr shots are yielding ~20% extraction.
This is a total surprise to me honestly. It has never been a tool in my arsenal that to increase extraction, you should increase the dose! I believe that I read threads on this very forum (was it from another_jim) where the guidance was that if you're having trouble extracting enough, then focus on lower doses and finer grinds.
This experiment was done with only a few shots but assuming it's repeatable, it leaves me wondering if this is simply a well understood behavior of espresso brewing (that I've clearly been ignorant to) in general, or is this more of a LMLM dynamic.
It has been a complete surprise to me that larger doses are yielding greater extraction percentages.
With a yield of about 2:1, my 18gr shots in a 20g VST are extracting only ~18-19% while my 19gr shots are yielding ~20% extraction.
This is a total surprise to me honestly. It has never been a tool in my arsenal that to increase extraction, you should increase the dose! I believe that I read threads on this very forum (was it from another_jim) where the guidance was that if you're having trouble extracting enough, then focus on lower doses and finer grinds.
This experiment was done with only a few shots but assuming it's repeatable, it leaves me wondering if this is simply a well understood behavior of espresso brewing (that I've clearly been ignorant to) in general, or is this more of a LMLM dynamic.
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atao (original poster)
By the way, thank you for the syringe filter tip @jpender, I got them and they're working out well.
