Puck prep, wondering about needling - Page 2

#11: Post by **jdrobison** » July 10th, 2021, 7:43 am

Qrumcof wrote:I read somewhere there will be channeling no matter what. The needles facilitate the bloom (I think it might be designed to work with Previn fusion), so as the coffee blooms / swells the needle holes are closed. I think the theory is that the advantage is wetting the puck more thoroughly/uniformly.

Interesting. I'd love to see that theory tested. I would think that the wetting would be less uniform since it would encourage more water in the area of the holes rather than evenly everywhere. But, again, it would be cool to find that someone has tested the results to prove the theory.

July 10th, 2021, 7:50 am

Puck prep study (2 messages back).

#13: Post by **Jake_G** » July 10th, 2021, 7:58 am

The idea is that there are enough holes that the water is effectively "everywhere", which means that channels are effectively nowhere.

It's similar in concept to the dimple pattern on golf balls. 1 dimple on a perfectly smooth golf ball makes for a wretched experience (I hear a perfectly smooth golf ball isnt a great experience, either) as it throws everything off, as would 2, or maybe 10 or more dimples. This is pseudo-analogous to having a channel or many channels. All bad. Jump up to many identical dimples that effectively cover the surface and now you have a nice pattern that breaks up the boundary layer of air along the ball and allows it to sail without any negative impact at all. In fact, it is far superior to a smooth ball. Too many dimples that are too small and you basically have a smooth ball again and you've lost the edge you had.

The porcupress (or Hog, or what have you) is shooting for the "golf ball" ratio of holes. Where individual channels that mess things up can't really exist because there is a sea of identical channels that expose the depth of the puck and allow the water to evenly penetrate it in a way that is not dissimilar from how the dimples allow a golf ball to sail further through the air.

Does it work? It seems to do "something" at a minimum. How tamping and the eventual swelling and compression of the puck interact with the needle holes remains to be seen. I think that if you cut open a spent puck that has been "porcupressed", you will find no evidence of there ever being hundreds of holes poked through it, but I don't know this to be true.

Cheers!

- Jake

#14: Post by **jdrobison** » July 10th, 2021, 8:38 am

Qrumcof wrote:Puck prep study (2 messages back).

I've seen that, too. Specifically what I meant was a test to confirm that there is more even wetting during the bloom with needling. In other words, examine the puck after bloom, before extraction. I wouldn't know how to do that - I'm just saying that if that's the theory, it would be cool to see it tested.

Oh....wait. Now I see that in those studies they were able to confirm "faster wetting" with The Hog. Is faster wetting the same thing as more evenly wetted? I need to learn a bit more about how all that is occurring and being measured.

July 10th, 2021, 1:24 pm

I'm in the same boat, lol. I didn't know the porcupress existed 2-days ago.. Anyone know if there are cheaper versions available (I saw the porcupress ~$300).

July 10th, 2021, 1:53 pm

Wow, $300!
Well... I did spend quite a lot on my tamping station, but $300 to put a needle pattern into a coffee bed seems ridiculous.

What I really wonder, though, is will you taste the difference? Can you taste a difference?

I've loved coffee for decades; I went to UC Berkeley back when getting Peet's Coffee meant going to their one and only shop on Vine street. Five years ago, I went into a wonderful artisan shop in Salt Lake City. I had a $15 cup of coffee, and we talked espresso for a while. At the time, I had a Nespresso at home. He told me Nespresso is awful. Hmm... and here I'd always enjoyed my morning Nespresso.

Fast-forward to today, I had a Breville for a while that blew the Nespresso away and now I have a full dual boiler setup and my morning espresso is just heavenly.

My long-winded point is: Yes, for sure, you can make coffee at home that is indisputably orders of magnitude better than Nespresso. No question that I can taste that difference by a mile.

But will a $300 needle tool do something I can taste? Or something you can taste? I don't have a refractometer, but I have a tongue, and it's the most important measurement instrument of all in this insane pursuit of ours.

What do you think?

#17: Post by **Qrumcof** » July 10th, 2021, 4:48 pm

PeetsFan wrote:Wow, $300!
But will a $300 needle tool do something I can taste? Or something you can taste? I don't have a refractometer, but I have a tongue, and it's the most important measurement instrument of all in this insane pursuit of ours.

I did it again today, while the grounds were still fluffy (leveled by shaking and the coffee whisk), I made a ring of holes with a toothpick somewhat near the edge. And my coffee Was delicious. A toothpick cannot compare with the $300 device, and frankly it did not make much difference in the cup taste (all it did was make the puck come out of the Porta filter better). (Ie: my coffee has been coming out great since using the shaker cup.. but I was feeling the water was not filtering thru the edges of the puck).

I tried the toothpick trick after using one of those levelers that you spin, but before tamping. And the shot pulled so fast I had to throw it away.

Hopefully someone with more experience with the pork you press will chime in here, I have not tried exhaustive googling yet.

#18: Post by **AssafL** » November 9th, 2021, 6:29 am

Obviously the "don't channel" instinct kicks in.

But one thought I have is the role of boulders and "large-ish" grinds. On the Preinfusion ramble it was shown that pre-infusion displaces the air, preventing the puck from squeezing tight under pressure. Once the PI is done parts of the puck may still be dry (e.g. between the finger flows).It was always my assumption that when pressure is applied they still get the water via the PSD of the boulders. The boulders have large fissures and the like which deliver water to the hidden regions in the puck.

A contraption (or device?) like this may make larger boulders unnecessary. It may make the puck accessible to water even with a more unimodal grind. If true that may make the thing interesting and get us up to the 25-28% EY range.

Finally we will be able to match Nespresso quality (at home).

#19: Post by **Qrumcof** » November 9th, 2021, 11:26 am

I bought one of these, and the needles are the thinnest I've ever seen (in case anyone wants to see if it functions like the porcupress).. The needles are so thin it's actually hard to level the puck (it goes thru the grounds barely disturbing the puck)..

I have been plagues with channeling.. so I'm thinking of trying this again.. Although once I increased the temp an channeling stopped (for a particular coffee), but I can't seem to duplicate it.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/977629464/ ... _purchases

#20: Post by **Jeff** » November 9th, 2021, 11:43 am

That WDT tool appears to be "strongly inspired" by the LeverCraft tool. The Hog or Porcupress is something entirely different. It is used after the grinds have been homogenized and leveled.