So I'm brand new to this. I've left the stock settings on my machine and have been playing with the niche zero grind between 12-14. I noticed the stock tamper is a bit small and there are usually some grounds hugging the wall after I tamp. Not sure if that matters?

My espressos are super sour. Generally, sour means underextracted right? I'm just not sure how that's possible with such a low setting. Also, with a 20 gram shot in the basket, it takes 8-10 seconds for first drops to hit the cup and about 37 seconds to get 40 grams of liquid out.

Any tips are appreciated.

You are likely tasting "super bitter".. or just "super strong" .....

Two adjustments you can make: 1) smaller dose. 2) coarser grind

grind coarser so you get 40 g in 28-30 seconds and compare. But you have a big dose there.. and so it is going to be strong and maybe the strength adds to the bitterness perception.

I'd also try to dose less .. 16-17g.. aim to get a 32g extraction in 26-32 seconds.. Then adjust 3 numbers coarser to really taste sour..

Play with these to see how the taste changes and adjust until you get what you like.

You'll go through some beans, but you need to in order to taste the wide range of extractions.

Wigglesworth2.0 wrote:So I'm brand new to this. I've left the stock settings on my machine and have been playing with the niche zero grind between 12-14. I noticed the stock tamper is a bit small and there are usually some grounds hugging the wall after I tamp. Not sure if that matters?

My espressos are super sour. Generally, sour means underextracted right? I'm just not sure how that's possible with such a low setting. Also, with a 20 gram shot in the basket, it takes 8-10 seconds for first drops to hit the cup and about 37 seconds to get 40 grams of liquid out.

Any tips are appreciated.

Sour could be from too cold of espresso temperature. Try boosting it a couple of degrees at a time until you get a good balance


Randy

Bluenoser wrote:You are likely tasting "super bitter".. or just "super strong" .....

Two adjustments you can make: 1) smaller dose. 2) coarser grind

grind coarser so you get 40 g in 28-30 seconds and compare. But you have a big dose there.. and so it is going to be strong and maybe the strength adds to the bitterness perception.

I'd also try to dose less .. 16-17g.. aim to get a 32g extraction in 26-32 seconds.. Then adjust 3 numbers coarser to really taste sour..

Play with these to see how the taste changes and adjust until you get what you like.

You'll go through some beans, but you need to in order to taste the wide range of extractions.

Do you measure the time from when you pull the lever or when the first drops hit the cup?

I've gotten it right to 16g in, 32 out in 26 seconds. That's with the niche zero set to 11. I wonder if it wasn't well calibrated upon arrival because that seems like a super low setting, and I prob should knock one more down.

Also, is 200 degrees good?

It is impossible to tell because it depends on roast level, the bean, and age of the bean. Don't even give the number a thought unless you are getting close to running out of settings. Time from the lever pull. 200F is good starting point. So now there are some good tutorials around on how to adjust by taste. I'm very inexperienced at doing this. Do some searches. But basically adjust one variable and see how it affects taste. So pull espresso, grind bit finer, bit coarser. Let all espressos get roughly same temp and taste. See what you prefer. Then maybe pull shot at this temp and then go down 3 deg and compare. You can also adjust dose.

How did your recent change taste compared to what prompted the post?

Edit. Just saw comment above. If you truly got sour your temp is too low. On E61 you MUST warm up for about 40 min. Just cause pid says 200 only means boiler is at that temp. If the group is not warmed up it drags your brew water temp down.what roast level is that blend? 200f is pretty standard for med dark roasts. Darker roasts use lower temps and light roasts can benefit from higher temps. Sometimes the bag will give recommendation

I have the 600 also, great machine! I use Nicoletti espresso roast for the beans and it always comes out great! I have the Ceado E6P grinder.
My first drip usually starts at 6 seconds. The 600 does heat up super quick as the boilers are smaller. I can pull a shot at 15 min easily and it will taste great! But in general the others are correct and you should prob wait 30 - 40 min to see if that is part of the issue. I have my unit on a wifi electrical outlet with a timer set.
I'm doing 18.5 in and around 45 out and the shot is nice and smooth. The roast I use is a lighter roast also, forgot to mention that. Here is one of the videos I did a while ago making a bulletproof espresso with the Pro 600.

I would question the 15 minute warm up of the Pro600, even though that is what the manual says. My Profitec Pro 500 says a warm up of 15 minutes, but I've proven that is not true with a group thermometer and SCACE. Here is why I think their manual is wrong.

Every E61 is a huge mass that evens out the temp of the water running through it. If it is cooler than your brew boiler, it will cool the water several degrees. If it is hotter, it will increase it. But overall, its benefit is that it keep the brew water, over 30 seconds, from changing. (like a capacitor in electronics, it smooths out changing voltages). The E61 heats up because there is a loop, called the thermosiphon, running from the boiler (brew, in this case) to the group and back. It circulates due to convection and slowly heats up the group. Unless there are some extra design components, it takes about 40 minutes to warm up an E61 group to its max temp. No getting around it.

You can prove this by putting a piece of black matte tape on the group and hitting it with an IR thermometer and waiting for its temp to max out. I did this for my E61 on my Pro 500 and that is what I found.

Your PID is actually sensing the brew water temp and then doing some math. Because the water from the brew boiler will cool on its way to the screen exit, the brew boiler is hotter than what it is displayed. So say that when your E61 is hot, the drop from the brew boiler to the screen is 7F degrees. Then setting the PID to 200 means the brew boiler is heated to 207. Now suppose you turn your machine on and in 5-10 minutes your brew boiler PID shows 200. Your E61 might be 15 degrees lower than it will be when fully hot. This first shot may be only 195 (not 200) and the only way to tell is to use an expensive SCACE monitoring tool in your Portafilter. You likely can't tell the difference in taste because 195 is a great temp for med-dark to dark roasts. (maybe better than 200). But if you wait 20 minutes and pull another shot, you might find a taste difference (because brew water will not be 5 deg hotter).

Now maybe this is overanalyzing, but might be important if you are pulling a light roast and want 205F as your brew water. You might pull in 10 minutes and find it sour.. but 20 minutes later will get a better taste.

I am just hypothesizing based on the E61 operational problems I had with my Pro 500 and from what I learned about how E61s work. If this is true, I would be very disappointed in the Pro600 manual for not being correct. But maybe there is some other components in play here I don't understand. I'm interested in this, because the Pro600 is a machine I would consider upgrading to.

I'm pretty sure you are absolutely correct in the math re the E61 group with temperatures. I do know that the Pro 600 has fairly small boilers (.75 I believe) compared to an HX machine like the Pro 500 with a 2L boiler. So the water itself will get up to temp much quicker. You could always run brew water thru the group before pulling the shot to ramp up the temp a bit. Not knowing the science or math behind any of this, I do know that I've pulled a shot as quick as 12 min or so and it tasted fine, which is incredible to me. I am a believer (with the E61 group that a bit longer is definitely better) but I do trust my taste buds of my 12 min shots. Now keep in mind there are a few things that will definitely be relative. I don't drink straight shots. I've sipped my 12 min shot and it tasted fine but I always use it in some sort of drink. Americano, Latte etc. If I were drinking straight shots and my palate were adjusted to that, then I may be able to taste a subtle difference. But for my drinks a 12-15 min shot tastes no different than a 30-40 min shot. So much that if it's been 15 or so min I will just pull the shot as normal and make my drink and it will be guaranteed to taste great. If I'm running super late and it's only been 10-12 min and i'm really pushing it then I might run a blank shot thru the group to ramp up the group temp a bit and then make my drink.

I have the machine plugged into a tp-link wifi outlet so it turns on automatically every morning so time isn't really an issue too often. But what I can say is that my 15 in shots taste very good to me. So is it my limited experienced palate? Not sure to be honest. I've tried a few super auto's before I got my Pro 600 and I definitely know what a sour shot tastes like lol so it's not that. But I would be willing to bet your math is correct and in general it's definitely advised to wait (I would say at least 30 min for the Pro 600) to eliminate any temp issues if you are diagnosing something with your drink.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's probably better odds he's getting channeling vs temp issues. He said he's tamping with the free plastic tamper and leaving untamped bed along the edges. Too long of a shot isn't going to be bitter if it's channeling like crazy. Majority of the puck will be highly under extracted.

Yes.. agree.. but when you are starting.. sometimes hard to tell sour vs bitter.

You first need a naked portafilter to diagnose dosing/distribution issues. They should always include a bottomless portafilter in home machines. And the tamper should be suitable so no grounds are left untamped at the edges of a basket. I didn't use my plastic tamper so I can't say how good a job it does.

I got a 58.4mm steel flat tamper and that works better in Profitec's stock basket than a 58mm one.

So likely you need to spend a bit more money and buy a better tamper (I'd recommend a 58.4, but take your baskets to a store and ensure it fits fine) and a bottomless portafilter to diagnose issues.