Pressure profiling after dialing in... Suggestions?

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Altair
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#1: Post by Altair »

So I do the standard dial in procedure, start with dose then move into yield then grind, I set temp at the offset based on roast profile. Now that we have a formidable pressure profiling machine and another incoming I would like to carefully explore pressure profiling.

So far it has not went well in terms of results though it was fun at first. At this point I would like to take a more structured approach to exploring this dimension of effect on extraction.

Is there a well respected guide the community references? I did a search of these forums and Google and couldn't find anything conclusive. Also, suggested profiles and theulir use cases would be very much appreciated!

Thanks in advance and I do apologize for posting every other day. Comes with the teritory when rediscovering a hobby I suppose.

Altair (original poster)
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#2: Post by Altair (original poster) »

A thought just came to me, position of the pressure profile in the variable hierarchy is something that I have not seen addressed.

As per Barista Hustle, going with dose - yield - time (grind) is the best way to dial in, I through in temp before dose in a pretty straight forward rule, 92 for dark roast, 94 medium, and 97 for light roasts works well and keeps it simple enough. Naturally there is room for experimentation further in temp but that rule keeps it simple enough to actually be put in regular use without overfomomplicating things.

What my ultimate goal would be with flow control/pressure profiling, is to determine 3-5 pressure profiles that could be applied in a rule similar to temp, either based off roast level or flavor profile.

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Jeff
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#3: Post by Jeff »

Bad news, no rules

The profile you select can alter the balance of the shot. As an example, extended, pressurized soak can tend to make shots more "blended" and less "clear". Changing the profile, especially when it comes to soak or range of extraction pressure, will often suggest a change in dose or grind.

Temperature remains a "last tweak" for me. I seldom change it unless I can't get a specific coffee dialed in. Then again, I don't often pull roasty coffees.

Three temperatures times five profiles is 15 combinations - my guess is you'll narrow that down a lot.

@Pixillate's posts on profiling are a good place to start, especially if you've got an E61-style machine. For example, An Even MORE Considered Approach to E61 Flow Control (now with video)

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baldheadracing
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#4: Post by baldheadracing »

You could start with the classic four pressure profiles and go from there:
https://portaspresso.com/pressure-profiling
https://portaspresso.com/profiling-examples
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

mgrayson
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#5: Post by mgrayson replying to baldheadracing »

Very informative links. Interesting that they recommend a maximum of 6.5 bar for pre-infused pucks, saying anything higher releases unpleasant flavors. Commercial levers often go to 11 bar after pre-infusion and I've never heard their output so derided. Even people who remove a spring get over 8 bar.

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baldheadracing
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#6: Post by baldheadracing replying to mgrayson »

I forgot to add to keep in mind that Ross Spencer was working with typical espresso roasts found in Australia of 2011 - so most likely a little darker than a modern perspective. He is also referring to pressure above the puck, not spring pressure.

Anyhow, with a new coffee that doesn't seem "right" on a spring lever or a pump, I will try three of his four profiles (excluding the conventional) with a direct lever, and go from there.
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

Altair (original poster)
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#7: Post by Altair (original poster) »

Thank you for those excellent links. Some interesting though inconclusive information there, it does provide enough clarity to have a starting point.

Based on my current understanding of those links, I am going to simplift my initial testing to two profiles, I am currently enjoying a light roast Ethiopian that has some very please to flavors but is too acidic for my taste. The goal is going to be to target the fruit flavors, add sweetness, reduce acidity and bitterness, I accept that body and texture will be compromised, which might actually be a good thing as the target here is a refreshing espresso rather than my usual thick and rich dark chocolate roasts either from Brazil or Colombia ( I used to target a simpler balance with those)

I have the Ethiopian dialed in at
96 Temp
18.5 Dose
1-2.5 Yield
29-31 seconds

Here is what I plan to test:

Profile 1: my standard preinfusion at 3 bars followed by 9 bars for most of the shot then a ramp down to 5.

Profile 2 as per my understanding from today's reading: preinfusion at 3 bars for 4 seconds, 6 bars for the first third, 5 for the second, 3 for the last.

The thinking here is that I want to target the highest extraction in the second third, taking into effect Puck degradation a reduction in pressure should maintain a higher extraction relative to previous thirds. So a 3bar in the last third would equate to a 4 or maybe even 5 bar in the second.


I have no idea if this is factual or just theory but let's see what happens. Will report back tomorrow.

Maybe its time I invest in a fractometer, if I could isolate each third in a separate cup and measure extraction compared to those flow/pressure changes I am sure a general rule could be derived within 20 shots or less. Or at least the theory would be put aside. Surprised no one has done this yet.

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Jeff
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#8: Post by Jeff »

The burrs in the Fausto are pretty traditional. You're not going to be able to use profiles from people using, for example, 98 HUs directly. I'd try increasing the ratio first. This assumes the coffee doesn't have notable roast defects.

Altair (original poster)
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#9: Post by Altair (original poster) »

Thank you for the comment. I agree that ratio is more impactful and would get results quicker, but I am looking at understanding profiling to a reasonable extent in context with other variables ( ratio included) to get an idea on how it could work in the connect of a system or potentially disregarding pressure profiling for the foreseeable future untill it's better understood on the community level.

Since you mentioned my old grinder, I am actually working off of a Eureka Mignon single dose now at my brother's house untill my pre-ordered Mahlkonig Omnia arrives ( I was quoted April) but I have a unique opportunity to purchase a gently used Mahlkonig Peak and a Simonelli Black Eagle Gravitech 2 group as a package. Zeroing in on the grinder, would that be a significant enough upgrade quopled with the Rocket R9 One? Should I postpone this test untill I have that grinder in hand as it would affect the results? Or is the Eurika good enough to draw a conclusion regardless

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Jeff
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#10: Post by Jeff »

None of the traditional grinders are going to extract anything like 98 HUs or similar. I'd skip them and enjoy the Omnia when it arrives.

There's been a lot of study done with profiling and the DE1. It's understood on a functional level there. Well, as long as you ignore Buckman's and Rao's marketing. As examples, Damian's profiles work well for traditional shots from medium roasts and tend to have come from traditional burr sets like the Kony burrs in the Niche Zero. Light roasts tend to do well with things like Extractamundo Dos! or "turbo" shots like April uses in their cafes. Traditional roasts often become a bitter mess with high-extraction techniques.

https://pocketsciencecoffee.com/2022/05 ... actamundo/ talks a bit about that lineage.