Preinfusion considered harmful? - Page 4

August 17th, 2018, 4:17 pm

Tonefish wrote:Consequently, I'd tend note the flaws of the study before giving the results credence. Just my opinion, of course!

While I did mention the study parameters, I was more thinking about my own results, where the fast-ramp in 1-2s was giving me a superior (imho) shot in the two examples I mentioned.

August 18th, 2018, 12:18 pm

A couple of interesting posts from CorvusDoug, from Ritual La Casa / Costa Rica back in 2016:

CorvusDoug wrote:And just a side note for anyone reading - be suspicious of shots that run much longer than 30 seconds, especially with pre infusion. Grinding too find can actually work against you and leave flavor/body behind. My two cents!

CorvusDoug wrote:I mean 30 seconds total. Pre infusion allows you to grind finer, so much longer than that (in our experience) actually yields a worse/less body with a wonky mix of extraction flavors. It can get so fine that the water actually avoids certain areas of the puck leaving those solubles behind. This usually happens to us around 32+ seconds.

#33: Post by **Tonefish** » August 18th, 2018, 6:01 pm

gr2020 wrote:A couple of interesting posts from CorvusDoug, from Ritual La Casa / Costa Rica back in 2016:

I think he would need to add some context to this. Since preinfusions today can be 30s themselves, this wouldn't make sense. Maybe he was talking about the 4s E61-like preinfusions. Without more information, who knows?

#34: Post by **RyanP** » August 18th, 2018, 6:08 pm

It's good to know there's a consensus in the community

#35: Post by **Bill33525** » August 21st, 2018, 12:09 pm

Readers of this thread may want to read: https://socraticcoffee.com/2016/06/expl ... xtraction/
Some of the conclusions are similar between the two studies. The variability of EY in the 30s preinfusion column may be due to the grinder entering into a particle distribution region that produces this wide EY performance. look at the Socratic "impact of Particles on TDS" notice, in Fig 10, there is a region of particles "50-50" that produces a wide range of TDS values, however, shot timing remains tight in fig 11. Unfortunately, there is no discussion as to why that particle mix resulted in such a wide range of TDS values.

August 21st, 2018, 9:18 pm

Very interesting ... thanks for posting this!

One thing I wonder is what would be the TDS or EY of the smaller particle pulls at 20, 30, or even 40 seconds. Running them out to 80 to 100 seconds just doesn't seem to be the kind of pull I would consider reasonable. I understand they needed controls, but that 40g requirement causing shots out to 80 or 100 seconds may be why they produce the unusual results they did. I appreciate the distribution effect aspect of the study too.

November 7th, 2018, 6:12 am

gr2020 wrote:I spent the last couple of years with a Breville Dual Boiler. At default settings, it would pre-infuse for about 7 seconds, then ramp to full pressure over the next couple of seconds.

In the last month or two I had it, I was trying to minimize the infusion and ramp time. I would hold the manual button momentarily, then release; this would lead to a vibe-pump-style ramp to full pressure in about 4-5 seconds. This is basically as fast as it would ramp pressure. I felt I was getting slightly better (tastier) results at the time, although I don't have specific notes about it.

About 6 weeks ago, I got a GS/3 MP (the new conical valve version), and of course spent the whole first week profiling every shot differently . Paddles are super fun when you first get to use one!

What I've found since then, though, for multiple coffees, is that an immediate ramp to full pressure (which means you're at pressure in around 1-2 seconds) is giving me better, tastier results for multiple types of coffees. Two recent examples:

Temple Dharma - fast-ramping yields a great shot, with the dark chocolate being punchy and really standing out in milk, with cherries in the background. Doing a slower 3-bar pre-infusion step (around 8s) followed by full pressure also yields a good shot, but it's much mellower - cherries about the same, but the dark chocolate is much less punchy. Overall both good shots, but I strongly prefer the fast-ramp version, and it wasn't really subtle.

Sweet Bloom Gesha Village lot 96 - unfortunately no longer available, but I wrote about my experience with it at Sweet Bloom - Gesha Village Lot 96 . Fast-ramp version was quite extraordinary, and the flavors were just as described by the folks in the cafe. A slower pre-infusion (about 15s at 3 bar) yielded a completely different shot that wasn't nearly as amazing, as described in that post.

I'm going to make a point to try a few light roasts that are difficult to extract otherwise.

But I guess my point is, I've been surprised to find that a fast-ramp of pressure can yield a demonstrably different flavor, and one that I found to be much tastier in the two examples above. Curious as to others' experiences...

I think preinfusion,next to tamping is the most overrated thing in espresso making.
I did blindtests and couldn t taste much difference.,