I'm baffled by the following paradox:

• 1.) It's been said here that Italians typically don't updose (i.e., a double is 14 g.)
  2.) A properly tamped 14g dose will end up well below the ridge in an LM double basket
  3.) A 58mm tamper is stopped by the ridge in an LM double basket, so it can't tamp a 14g dose
  4.) LM supplies a double basket and a plastic 58mm tamper with the GS/3

I realize smaller tampers can be had, and that espressoparts will shave a tamper down to spec. But why would LM supply a basket and tamper that can't be used for the official Italian double dose of 14g?

I've read that many Italian baristas use the tamper mounted on the grinder. Do those tampers typically run smaller than 58mm? In other words, is the LM double basket intended for use with a smaller, grinder-mounted tamper? If so, is the GS/3 combination of the LM double basket and 58mm tamper intended for non-Italian updosing countries like the U.S.?

I was reminded of this paradox today when I tried to tamp a 14g dose in one of the two LM double baskets that came with my GS/3. Believe it or not, I've only used the stock double baskets a couple of times, and that was for updosed shots. My go-to basket has been the Synesso ridgeless double, which easily accommodates doses in the 12g-19g range, all of which can be tamped with a 58mm tamper. I just acquired a K10 and was curious about how the same grind/dose would fare in each of the baskets I have on hand. Out came an LM double -- and I couldn't tamp the 14g dose. I pulled it anyway and it produced a spectacular gusher.

The LM OEM double basket is referenced by Chris Tacy for all of his suggested extraction parameters in Favorite Espresso Blends 2010. It seems to be something of a standard. Is it considered primarily an updosing basket?

I've never used the Synesso basket. The LM ridged double seems to need about 2 grams more than the E61 double for similar tasting shots.

Italians bars overwhelmingly make singles. For this they use, very casually, highly curved 54mm tampers mounted on the dosers. These work for most single baskets, and will do fine for a ristretto-ish 14 gram double.

Grinder mounted tampers do not work well on either the LM single or double baskets. This may not be a problem for LM, since they don't seem to sell many machines in Italy. At least I've never seen one in any bar, restaurant or hotel I've visited there. The marque is made in Italy, but seems to sell almost only abroad.

Agreed. This is an incredibly annoying feature, and the main reason why my LM doubles never saw much use. It never seemed worthwhile to buy a 57mm tamper just to prep a normal dose in the LM basket.

It's a "feature."

ken

The (awful) black plastic tamper is (if memory serves) actually not 58mm but rather 57mm.

Some thoughts / insight.

1 - the size of the LM OEM ridged double is notoriously variable. I've used baskets where a 58mm tamper can pass the ridge (just barely) and ones where the tamper binds well short of the ridge.

2 - a "neutral" dose on this basket (when using a LM machine) runs right about 16.5g or 17g for most coffees.

3 - the LM machines are definitely not the norm for Italian machines or espresso. They deviate in many ways from the standards. This is only one example. In my experience, you rarely see these machines in use in Italy outside of the Florence area. It's possible that the basket size and design were influenced by the US market in fact.

4 - it is, in fact, possible to down-dose in these baskets (even with a 58mm tamper) but it not only requires some technique tricks but also only works with some grinders.

5 - a lot of people who use these baskets in commercial environments and use lower doses have 57.5mm tampers (easy to get from espresso parts et al).

6 - it's important (IMHO) to understand that the idea of a "specified" dose (the illusory "golden rule" 14g for example) is entirely specific to a combination of coffee, machine, and basket (and to a degree grinder as well). If you were to (for example) dose Illy at 14g in an LM OEM double on an LM Mistral it would taste inferior (even to an Italian) to the same coffee on the same machine in the same basket at 16g dose.

7 - there is no such thing as a "normal" dose. It's a myth that needs to die.

8 - in general, I use the LM OEM ridged double basket as my default basket because I prefer the flavor profile from it. I find I get slightly better separation of flavours (vs a Faema style basket) and slightly better range of flavours (high and low) than from a Synesso. If I can't find a sweet spot with this basket or think I can find a better profile with a different basket, I'll switch.

9 - also, most commercial roasters use LM baskets so they taste their blends from these baskets - which is perhaps why I prefer the profile

malachi wrote:1 - the size of the LM OEM ridged double is notoriously variable.

True, in my (very) limited experience with these baskets. I found a full gram difference in capacity between my two LM doubles, more than twice that of any other basket (see here).

malachi wrote:7 - there is no such thing as a "normal" dose. It's a myth that needs to die.

Perhaps. But nonetheless, it's absolutely ridiculous, on a machine with a 58mm grouphead and PF, to standardize on a basket that binds a 58mm tamper at the ridge.

malachi wrote:8 - in general, I use the LM OEM ridged double basket as my default basket because I prefer the flavor profile from it.

This is, of course, the only compelling reason to put up with the LM basket. In my Vetrano days, I preferred the convenience of the ridgeless Synesso double basket. My taste buds were not sensitive enough to detect any huge flavor profile differences.

Thanks for the confirmations. It's nice to know I'm not completely nuts

I measured the LM black plastic tamper and Chris is correct that it's 57mm. But it still slams into the ridge, so it won't tamp any better than a 58mm. Diameter of the basket at the ridge line is a little harder to measure, but it looks like a tamper would have to be under 55mm to clear it.

Speaking of variations in quality, the holes in both my LM double baskets are drilled off-center:



(Sorry for the blurry photo, but you get the idea.) I doubt this affects extractions, but you'd think they could get the hole pattern centered.

Similarly, the quality of LM shower screens is pretty poor. Weld marks and blobs of metal here and there, and so forth. On suggestion from Nicholas I switched to Synesso screens, which are plug-compatible. Much nicer build quality. In the photos below, the LM screens are in the first row and the Synesso screens are in the second row.

Be aware that the Synesso screen fit is not truly exact and you'll trap a lot of grinds. No big deal, but you'll want to remove the screen and wipe / rinse regularly.

In terms of "off center" holes... Yeah. common issue. Also common are weirdly shaped and sized holes. Of course.... this is true of ALL baskets (the Synesso ones are notorious for poor finishing for example).

There are rumours of a new Japanese basket that is more precise. The interesting thing is that a while back there were attempts to create a precise laser etched basket - but in blind tests the results were unanimous. People did not like the espresso from these baskets. In fact - in those tests, the basket that fared best was the most poorly finished one).

Just goes to show how little we really understand about espresso.

malachi wrote:Be aware that the Synesso screen fit is not truly exact and you'll trap a lot of grinds. No big deal, but you'll want to remove the screen and wipe / rinse regularly.

I do it every day. The Synesso screen seems to fit pretty well. Can't turn it or anything. But on removing the screen I've noticed a few grinds around the extreme inside perimeter of the basket. They might be coming in over the edge.

I always thought/was told that LM's needed a 57 (not 58) mm tamper . . .