Need help with rich/thick lattes

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
thecoffeefield
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#1: Post by thecoffeefield »

Hello,
I'm having trouble making a rich latte with a thick and rich mouthfeel and I was hoping some of you can direct me or provide suggestions as to how I can get there.

First, I have a PID'd Silvia and Super Jolly Electronic Doserless that I just acquired last week or so for Christmas. Previously I had a Compak K3 Touch and it was a clumping monster. The Super Jolly (built in 2015) provides a fluffy grind and it really pushed my espresso couple of notches up with thick and syrupy espresso, all other variables unchanged. I love it.

Second, I understand that the Silvia is not an excellent machine and that the quality of the shot, compared to more expensive machines, is perceived as lower quality but having said that, I have been to many third wave cafes and went to the Coffee Festival in NY and I can honestly say (I know some people will fall off their chair laughing) that my espresso shots are on par (if not better) than the espresso I tasted at the festival, which was produced by great baristas using freshly roasted coffees and incredible machines. At least to me, my espresso's taste is equivalent or better.

Now, here is my issue, even though my espresso taste great (to me), I can't seem to produce the same lattes produced by the same roasters at the festivals and at those same third wave cafes. Their lattes are rich with rich mouthfeel and almost feels to the tongue like what a hot chocolate would feel. I'm really trying hard to put it in words, but my lattes taste more like coffee with milk than the rich thick mouthfeel I get with their lattes. I'm using the Organic Valley whole milk if this helps and for coffees I tried Counter Culture, 49 Parallel and Lavazza Blend. My brew ratio is usually anywhere between 1:1.5 to 1:2 depending on the coffee. I use anywhere between 18.5 gm and 19.5gm (using Rancilio's triple basket) of coffee, again depending on the coffee.

Having said all that, can it be that my steaming technique is subpar and hence my milk is no good? Can it be that I need to adjust the pressure on the Silvia (but again I don't think that I have a problem with the espresso if evaluated alone)? What am I doing wrong?

mike guy
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#2: Post by mike guy »

With a latte the mouthfeel all comes from milk. The espresso contributes to the taste, but very little to the feel. You likely are not producing the same level of microfoam that the cafes are. Commercial machines make creating microfoam very easy, but it can be done with almost any home machine. The problem is that the instructions to create the microfoam with weak steam are some what different than what you read. It basically comes down to experimenting. Sometimes your steam hardware will eventually limit the quality and only get you 90% of the way there.

It really helps to first know what good microfoam looks like for lattes, so you know what end goal your experiments should strive for. Which can be hard to see over video. If you are friendly with your local shop, you may ask them to hand you a pitcher of perfectly steamed milk so you can compare that to what you see at home.

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MB
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#3: Post by MB »

There are several good threads out there about making good microfoam, but the thing for me that really made the difference in all of the instructions was to make a vertical roll after incorporating the air (even during is helpful). I have a fast steamer at home and a slow steamer at work, so I am used to the technique for both. This is how I do it for the slower one and not too different from how I do it on the faster one:

In a 12 oz steaming pitcher pour cold whole milk up to a centimeter under the bottom of the spout indentation. After clearing out the steam wand with a short blast, lower the steam tip into the milk and open up the steam valve. Immediately gently lower the pitcher until the tip is just under the surface and sucking in air, not making big bubbles, but dispersing the air into the milk with that classic "tearing paper" sound you hear at the coffee shop. I do this at the edge of the pitcher about 1 centimeter or less from the left or right side (the side closest to the center of the machine). The volume of the milk will start to rise in the pitcher, so you will have to lower the pitcher slightly to keep the same tearing sound. I feel for the temperature on the bottom of the pitcher to rise as well. I stop incorporating air by raising the pitcher just before I feel the milk coming up to skin temperature. (The standard advice is the same temperature as you feel touching your finger tips to your lips, but I stop just short of that.)

Having raised the pitcher so the steam tip is just enough below the surface and the air is no longer being sucked in, the second phase begins. I do this with the tip in the same 1 centimeter place from the side of the pitcher. You will have to find the sweet spot of tip location and tilt of the pitcher to create a vertical rolling motion in the milk. Essentially, the steam will push the milk down the side of the pitcher, across the bottom, and up the other side, creating a roiling wave on the far side of the pitcher. This incorporates the microfoam while heating up the milk (and also disperses any bubbles that may have formed on the surface in phase one). Once the bottom of the pitcher becomes near too hot to touch, turn off the steam wand. The milk should look like thick liquid latex paint, not foam. If it looks like foam or has a foamy head right away, then you may have incorporated too much air in the first phase. To keep the microfoam incorporated swirl the pitcher until the pour.
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thecoffeefield (original poster)
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#4: Post by thecoffeefield (original poster) »

Do you think if I spend more time rolling the milk would that help with increased richness? Should I freeze my pitchers to help?

thecoffeefield (original poster)
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#5: Post by thecoffeefield (original poster) »

MB wrote:There are several good threads out there about making good microfoam, but the thing for me that really made the difference in all of the instructions was to make a vertical roll after incorporating the air (even during is helpful). I have a fast steamer at home and a slow steamer at work, so I am used to the technique for both. This is how I do it for the slower one and not too different from how I do it on the faster one...
Thank you very much for the detailed instructions! I will try doing it this way and will report back

Nunas
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#6: Post by Nunas »

Do you think if I spend more time rolling the milk would that help with increased richness? Should I freeze my pitchers to help?
In a word, No. Much has been said about the importance of starting with cold milk. My personal experience is that it does not matter a whit. I can get good microfoam or cap foam from milk of any temperature from near freezing to room temp. However, the colder the milk and the colder the pitcher, the longer you will have to steam to get to the desired temperature. The longer you steam the more water you will introduce into your milk. I have messed with this by taring my jug + milk, then weighing it again after foaming. If I use my lightest jug with refrigerator temp milk (about 3-degrees C) I add about 35 g of water. If I change nothing else but use one of my heavier jugs the added water goes up to around 45 g due to having to heat the heavier jug. I have not tried changing the temperature, but am confident about my suggestion not to freeze your jug.

The nice description you got earlier about how to steam for microfoam is about what I do too. I would only add that for microfoam you do not want to overstretch. About 1/3 increase is about right for me. For cap foam I go to nearly double, as I want a lot of floating foam. Also, do your stretching before the temperature reaches 25 to 30-degrees C, and stop heating when it reaches 80 to 85-degrees C. This will give you lots of time to roll or vortex the milk and will result in a sweeter tasting foam. Don't know why...it just does.
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shadow31490
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#7: Post by shadow31490 »

After spending years working coffee shops, I think that you should aerate your milk a little longer. Doing this will create more air bubbles in your milk, which can create an almost fluffier mouthfeel. I would also not freeze your milk pitcher, this will only result in you having to steam your milk longer.

thecoffeefield (original poster)
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#8: Post by thecoffeefield (original poster) replying to shadow31490 »

Thank you. Will try this tonight

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baldheadracing
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#9: Post by baldheadracing »

On top of all the good advice given above, some machine considerations:

Does the PID have a steam control circuit? If not, then it is best to steam the moment the steam light switches off. With steam control, it won't matter, but you still have to wait until the steam light first switches off. Purge only just as long as it takes to get rid of the water - this is usually turning the steam control a full turn on and off, and then steam right away. Crank the steam control full open. Use a small pitcher - 12 oz - and steam 4-6 oz of milk. I found the Espro Toroid pitcher worked best with the Silvia, as it can make the steaming process faster by getting a good vortex (vertical roll) instantly, thus speeding up getting the milk up to temp.

The big thing to keep in mind is that the Silvia is an "espresso and cappuccino" machine. It was designed to steam for two Italian-sized capps. It was not designed to steam enough milk for two lattés. To attempt to steam more than 4-6 oz of milk means that either a) you need to have less water in the boiler (so more room for steam), or b) If you don't start with less water, then you will get excessively "wet" steam once the steaming continues beyond the machine's design capacity. However, with either a) or b), this can will get expensive as exceeding the machine's design capacities will, slowly but surely, damage the boiler heating element. The damage won't be obvious until much later when the element eventually fails. If your PID has steam control, then there is also c), raise the boiler temperature, which raises the boiler pressure. This doesn't have a huge effect because the boiler size doesn't change, but it does have an effect. (If you have steam control, then the steaming temperature has probably already been set to give more pressure with a value that is safe. Like pretty much everything on a Silvia, there are no safeguards.)
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

trapperkeeper
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#10: Post by trapperkeeper »

shadow31490 wrote:After spending years working coffee shops, I think that you should aerate your milk a little longer. Doing this will create more air bubbles in your milk, which can create an almost fluffier mouthfeel. I would also not freeze your milk pitcher, this will only result in you having to steam your milk longer.
Agree 100% - I prefer thicker/creamier lattes if making one... cold milk but no need to cool/freeze pitcher... been there/done that. keep adding air... sometimes I will inject air the whole steaming process to get the most micro foamed milk possible..(1% though) if it's too much, just back it off a bit... of course, detailed latte art is near impossible this way....
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