Need help fixing espresso that I THINK is over extracted - Page 2

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
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Almico
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#11: Post by Almico »

Try dosing 15.5g and grind a bit finer to get 1:2 in 30s. It's very difficult to over extract espresso. Very easy to over dose.

If it's a medium roast straight Guat, you might even want to go to 1:3 and work your way back.

PIXIllate
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#12: Post by PIXIllate »

MochaMike wrote:Ok thanks. what's the difference thought if I pull the shot in say, 24 seconds, as opposed to 30? or 35?

Also, 200F is like 93C...is that the temp I should have on the PID (for the Lelit Anna 2) ? Or is there an offset?
The difference is contact time. The longer the grounds are in contact with water the more of the soluble compounds the water can extract. So if you prepare two identical baskets without changing the grind size AND assuming your puck prep is identical and perfect AND there is no channeling (a big assumption) then the shot that runs for more time means the water will pull more soluble material out of the coffee.

In practice we adjust the grind finer so the water has a harder time making its way through the puck resulting in a longer shot time for the same liquid output measured in grams. This results in a higher extraction yeild, or put a simpler way, more coffee stuff in the water in your cup.

As Jeff points out, depending on the roast level you can extract things that are undesirable such as heavy roast flavours but in your specific case, with that specific St-Henri Holy Cow espresso blend I would suggest trying to get your 18/36g shot to run in about 30 seconds.

Yes, the PID setting should be 200F. How accurate that is wilI vary depending on the machine but that is another topic for another thread.
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MochaMike (original poster)

#13: Post by MochaMike (original poster) » replying to PIXIllate »

Yeah, I feel I'm still extracting unpleasant flavours...I'm going to start paying attention to when it starts blonding and how long it goes like that.

I made a few shots using 17.5 grams and 18 grams with a 1:1.5-2 ratio and honestly theyre all tasting the same. maybe my issue is channeling.

The shots usually start off slow and then speed up as it switches color....if it runs too fast, that means its channeling right?

I don't have a bottomless pf yet...I had one with my gaggia but I'll obviously need a new one since I now have a 57 mm pf. Would you say the bottomless is essential?

Earthy

#14: Post by Earthy »

PIXIllate wrote:The difference is contact time. The longer the grounds are in contact with water the more of the soluble compounds the water can extract. So if you prepare two identical baskets without changing the grind size AND assuming your puck prep is identical and perfect AND there is no channeling (a big assumption) then the shot that runs for more time means the water will pull more soluble material out of the coffee.
How does that connect with the idea of grinding coarser for light roasts and running longer, as the higher flow rate is the cause of the greater extraction? If i dilute a shorter shot, would they taste the same?

MochaMike (original poster)

#15: Post by MochaMike (original poster) »

Guys, what would you say is more important....a bottomless portafilter or a leveling tool? They're both roughly the same price (like 80-90$ CAD) but I can't afford both at the moment. What should I get first?

When I had my bottomless with the gaggia, it was a good diagnosing tool, but I often didn't know how to fix certain problems. Like, if my stream wouldn't stay centered, how do I fix that? Fix my tamping...ok, how?

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Jeff
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#16: Post by Jeff »

A bottomless portafilter can help you know if you have a problem. For me, that's enough to make it a clear choice.

In my opinion, you're best leveling the grinds by hand. Gently with a fine-tined "WDT" tool like the LeverCraft, or acupuncture needles in a cork works well for me. I have yet to be convinced that any of these commercial levelers are the "silver bullet" people are hoping for.

If your tamping is square to the basket and moderately firm and you're getting very lopsided extractions, it's potentially how you grind or dump into the basket, or how you stir it afterwards. This all assumes that the group head is level! A bit of wandering isn't something to stress about, as long as there aren't large color differences across the basket, or dry spots. Look for patterns. If there is one, try rotating the basket half a turn and see if the "problem" moves or not.

MochaMike (original poster)

#17: Post by MochaMike (original poster) » replying to Jeff »

I also find it easier to tamp with a bottomless. with the spouted portafilter, I find it hard to keep a level tamp. maybe I'm not doing it right...I make sure the spouts are off the table, but it's not steady.

then I use a needle to do the WDT...it's a single needle though. would getting something like make a difference?

https://www.amazon.ca/Wobekuy-Espresso- ... 2280&psc=1

yeah, I don't think a bit of wandering of the stream is anything to stress about. what you're really looking for as far as 'issues' are like spraying, right?

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Jeff
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#18: Post by Jeff »

I tamp on a hockey puck with my bottomless. I literally just ordered some more of "real" (Canadian-made) ones from https://inglasco.com/collections/6oz-ca ... ckey-pucks to hopefully get ones as good and un-stinky as the one I got a decade ago from the Sharks. Maybe you've got a local supplier there. California doesn't have much backyard hockey.

Here's a good photo of how I like to hold a tamper so that my fingertips can feel the rim of the basket.
How much do you have to spend on basket/tamper?

Though others may disagree, I tried many different tools with a machine that could measure flow rate during extraction. I found that loops or bent ends generally made my variability greater than straight ones. Puck prep study supports that conclusion as well. I also found that anything bigger than a paperclip (~0.7 mm) made the variability greater. I use a LeverCraft WDT tool, but it isn't cheap. A set of 0.4 mm acupuncture needles (or maybe smaller) in a cork works well on a budget (under $10 as "3d printer cleaning kit"). There's something about how LeverCraft's needles are arranged that just really works well. Eric (LeverCraft) brought that design to market and Oscar Wilde's quote seems appropriate, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness."

baldheadracing
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#19: Post by baldheadracing »

Besides all the great advice above, FWIW, I could never successfully dose more than 14g in my machine that has the same 57mm/250ml group as the Anna. The group was designed for Italian doses, and pushing it beyond its design limitations yielded awful coffee for me. It used to be my cubicle machine and I used it with great success with medium roasts for years.

Just my experience. YMMV.

As an aside, in my tests, the group needed 35-45 minutes of warm-up to be stable.

ETA: Canadians generally use European pucks for non-hockey applications. Better quality and don't smell - and less expensive. https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/search# ... Results=25
- bigger flat burr makes always better grinding result than smaller one - H. Lee
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MochaMike (original poster)

#20: Post by MochaMike (original poster) »

Jeff wrote:I tamp on a hockey puck with my bottomless. I literally just ordered some more of "real" (Canadian-made) ones from https://inglasco.com/collections/6oz-ca ... ckey-pucks to hopefully get ones as good and un-stinky as the one I got a decade ago from the Sharks. Maybe you've got a local supplier there. California doesn't have much backyard hockey.

Here's a good photo of how I like to hold a tamper so that my fingertips can feel the rim of the basket.
How much do you have to spend on basket/tamper?

Though others may disagree, I tried many different tools with a machine that could measure flow rate during extraction. I found that loops or bent ends generally made my variability greater than straight ones. Puck prep study supports that conclusion as well. I also found that anything bigger than a paperclip (~0.7 mm) made the variability greater. I use a LeverCraft WDT tool, but it isn't cheap. A set of 0.4 mm acupuncture needles (or maybe smaller) in a cork works well on a budget (under $10 as "3d printer cleaning kit"). There's something about how LeverCraft's needles are arranged that just really works well. Eric (LeverCraft) brought that design to market and Oscar Wilde's quote seems appropriate, "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness."
so you're saying the single needle I use should be able to do the job?