My first ever bottomless shot: help me learn to judge it please?

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks.
AkshayRao27

Postby AkshayRao27 » May 11, 2018, 8:00 am

3 days back, we bought a Profitec Pro 300. This is my first "real" espresso machine (I upgraded from a Rommelsbacher EKS2000). Earlier today, I picked up a bottomless portafilter from the shop I bought the machine and pulled my first ever bottomless shot! I don't quite know what to look for yet. Would you consider this to be a "good" shot? Has it channeled? What should I work on improving? I'm using a Sette 270 and the sh**ty plastic tamper that came with the machine (I ordered a real tamper and distribution tool online and am waiting for them to arrive).

I have a feeling that the basket that came with the bottomless was a bit too big for my 19gm dose. It was less than ½ full after tamping. Not sure if this is a problem. Also, what the heck is up with water leaking from between the PF and group head?! I'm PRETTY sure that's not supposed to happen! I pushed the PF as far as I thought it went (didn't want to force it too much because I was afraid of damaging the machine).

Shot: 19 in → 35 out in 24 sec.
Beans: Espresso Blend from three regions, bought on 23rd April and stored in a vacuumm container since (roasted on 20th March)
Grind: 10 C½ with 2 shims.
Taste: Didn't taste the shot, unfortunately! The capp tasted a bit bitter.

BaristaBob

Postby BaristaBob » May 11, 2018, 8:14 am

Your overall pull did not look bad, actually you're starting from a great spot. The shot looked really fast, can I ask the time and amount in the cup? So some things to think about...Half full in the basket is not good. It sounds like you have a triple basket on that bottomless pf. You need a double. Better tamper on the way...good. Maybe lock that baby in just a hair tighter...that is water leaking around the outside of your pf, and make sure the rim of the basket and the head gasket are totally free of coffee grounds. You might want to tighten your grind as well if this pour was fast.

Nice start!
Bob "hello darkness my old friend..."

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bean2friends

Postby bean2friends » May 11, 2018, 8:21 am

I've seen that before. When I first got my Mini Vivaldi I was using a triple basket in my bottomless and it always behaved that way. I switched to a double and changed my dose to a typical 14 to 16 grams and never have that problem anymore. 14 to 16 grams in my 53mm baskets may translate to 19 in your 58mm basket.
I am wondering about the roast you are using. I suspect you may have a fairly light roast. That can also lead to low volume in the portafilter.

AkshayRao27

Postby AkshayRao27 » May 11, 2018, 8:35 am

BaristaBob wrote:Your overall pull did not look bad, actually you're starting from a great spot. The shot looked really fast, can I ask the time and amount in the cup? So some things to think about...Half full in the basket is not good. It sounds like you have a triple basket on that bottomless pf. You need a double. Better tamper on the way...good. Maybe lock that baby in just a hair tighter...that is water leaking around the outside of your pf, and make sure the rim of the basket and the head gasket are totally free of coffee grounds. You might want to tighten your grind as well if this pour was fast.

Nice start!

Thanks Bob! I updated the original post with some details. The shot was 19 gm in, 35 gm out in 24 sec. I didn't taste the shot unfortunately, but the capp was a tad bitter. This would imply that it was either over extracted or that it channelled somewhere (which means it overextracted, yeah). I switched to the 14 gm basket that the Pro 300 came with. Will pull a shot with that one tomorrow and post another video! I'll work on the lock too. Just a little antsy since I'm already locking it in quite hard (this much might have damaged my old machine; I need to get used to the P300's ruggedness!). I'm fairly certain there were no grounds. I clean the group with the Espazzola after each shot.

bean2friends wrote:I've seen that before. When I first got my Mini Vivaldi I was using a triple basket in my bottomless and it always behaved that way. I switched to a double and changed my dose to a typical 14 to 16 grams and never have that problem anymore. 14 to 16 grams in my 53mm baskets may translate to 19 in your 58mm basket.
I am wondering about the roast you are using. I suspect you may have a fairly light roast. That can also lead to low volume in the portafilter.

Yes, it is a light roast! But I guess the basket is just way too big, as bob suggested. The volume, even without tamping, looks a little much. Will pull with a double basket tomorrow morning :)

BaristaBob

Postby BaristaBob » May 11, 2018, 8:56 am

Since this is a light roast, I suspect it's probably sour your tasting. For that light roast, tighten up that grind, shoot for 1:2 ratio, so for 19g you want 38g in the cup in no less than 30 sec maybe even 35 sec would be better. See where that leads too according to your taste buds! If you go too far, you will taste bitter...but some like a tad of that in the cup!
Bob "hello darkness my old friend..."

Blacktip

Postby Blacktip » May 11, 2018, 11:31 am

BaristaBob:

Could you explain why 18g of grinds in tripple basket (21grams) is no good?

Profitec comes with Double 14 grams, and triple 21 grams baskets. How much grinds can actually fits in each without touching the shower screen?

Thanks,

mrjag

Postby mrjag » May 11, 2018, 3:56 pm

There was a small pocket left of center that was extracting more slowly than the rest -- maybe a pencilhead or so in size. You can see it most clearly right after the two cones merge (~00:17). Other than that it seems like it was maybe a tad fast like someone else commented, but taste always trumps the visuals so make sure you sample the shots if you are trying to dial it in.

AkshayRao27

Postby AkshayRao27 » May 12, 2018, 6:43 am

BaristaBob wrote:Since this is a light roast, I suspect it's probably sour your tasting. For that light roast, tighten up that grind, shoot for 1:2 ratio, so for 19g you want 38g in the cup in no less than 30 sec maybe even 35 sec would be better. See where that leads too according to your taste buds! If you go too far, you will taste bitter...but some like a tad of that in the cup!

I think I might have overdone it with the grind setting. Pulled something that's more ristretto-ish. I dosed 19 gm (in the double basket this time) and had 19 gm out at close to 30 sec. I ended the shot at 56 sec and had 38 gm in the cup.

What blew my mind, though, is that this shot was FAR less bitter than the previous one. There was a faint bitterness to it that I could taste at the back of my tongue, but other than that it wasn't bad. It was sour, but not in a "OMG disgusting" way; definitely palatable, even for me with the hatred of espresso my taste-buds have built up thanks to my old EKS2000. Not as intense as the last shot, maybe even heading towards dilute.

mrjag wrote:There was a small pocket left of center that was extracting more slowly than the rest -- maybe a pencilhead or so in size. You can see it most clearly right after the two cones merge (~00:17). Other than that it seems like it was maybe a tad fast like someone else commented, but taste always trumps the visuals so make sure you sample the shots if you are trying to dial it in.

Yes, I see what you mean. There's this little line, almost, where there's no flow at all. Yes, I'll sample all the shots from now on :)

Blacktip wrote:BaristaBob:

Could you explain why 18g of grinds in tripple basket (21grams) is no good?

Profitec comes with Double 14 grams, and triple 21 grams baskets. How much grinds can actually fits in each without touching the shower screen?

Thanks,

I guess too much head-space isn't good. I'm not sure I understand perfectly well WHY this is so, but that's the reason I know. The mass of grinds that would fit each of the baskets would depend on the grind, I think. Intuitively, I think that 14 gm of a super-fine-machine-choking grind would take up less space than 14 gm of a pour-over size grind.

BaristaBob

Postby BaristaBob » May 12, 2018, 7:20 am

Blacktip wrote:BaristaBob:

Could you explain why 18g of grinds in tripple basket (21grams) is no good?

Profitec comes with Double 14 grams, and triple 21 grams baskets. How much grinds can actually fits in each without touching the shower screen?

Thanks,


Hi Blacktip,

My comment was not addressed specifically to 18g in the basket, but rather the poster said that the basket appeared to be only half full. Problem here is that the large distance that the water from the shower screen has to fall could disrupt the surface of the grounds. One test for proper ground height is to place a nickel on top of the grounds and insert the pf into the group head. Remove and check for a very slight disturbance. Then you have the proper distance.
Bob "hello darkness my old friend..."