A More Considered Approach to E61 Flow Control - Page 2

#11: Post by **Eiern** » April 21st, 2021, 8:37 am

PIXIllate wrote:This seems like a fairly reasonable routine. What roast level of coffees do you normally use? Do you vary the procedure for different coffees?

I have skipped the preinfusion part for the occational decaf beans (for my wife) to keep the flow lower at very fine grind settings. But I mostly do the same, I go for optimal extraction, and then if the beans show bitterness or defects I cut the shot a little earlier. I use mainly Tim Wendelboe filter roast and other nordic light roast beans. The light roast combined with the unimodal burrs force me to get the best extraction I can, unless it will taste underextracted even at semi-high extraction numbers. I could do a little shorter shots with the High Uniformity SSP burrs as they taste stronger + more bitterness and body and can taste balanced at shorter lower extractions (actually 1:3 would sometimes be too much).

I had the paddle calibrated to cut the flow entirely and my needle is still fine, I opened it just recently and applied O-ring lubricant. I did however recalibrate it one notch more open a few days ago after reading this thread, as I don't need 100% closed flow as I don't do blooming profiles.

#12: Post by **walr00s** » April 21st, 2021, 9:21 am

For bright, lighter roasts, I start at ~5/8 turn(~3 ml/s) and when pressure begins to rise (~2s mark) dial back to ~1/4 turn (~1 ml/s) and let it slowly rise to ~4 bar, then I close it until the bottom of the basket is completely covered in droplets (usually have less than 1g in the cup at this point). I then open it to ~1/4 turn again and flow begins within 3s (if it doesn't I'll close it again as long as pressure didn't rise rapidly above 5 bar, if it did, I know I'm probably making a sink shot, though I usually taste it because...I never learn). Pressure rises to ~5.5 bar at the 1/4 turn setting and I open it up to ~3/4 (~4.5 ml/s) turn, gradually reducing it back down to nothing as I approach my target weight and/or the pressure climbs above 8 bar. If the flow rate is very high and pressure isn't rising above 7 bar, I will open the FC more to attempt to get higher pressure, though again, this usually means the shot belongs in the sink.

For anything else, I start at 5/8 turn, dial back to ~1/2 turn when pressure begins to rise and let it rise to ~4 bar. The maximum I will wait is ~12s mark before opening it to 3/4-1turn. If liquid isn't fully flowing by this point, I usually just kill the shot and start it over with a coarser grind. I can tolerate shots that are too acidic, but shots that are too astringent/bold/dark tasting blow out my palate for quite a while, so I don't taste them before they hit the sink. I slowly dial back usually starting between 25-30s based on how close I am to my target weight, but on these more typical shots that are completing in under 40s with ~6-10s PI, I don't find that this matters as much.

I agree that it seems unlikely that the needle valves are mechanically very different.

#13: Post by **Auctor** » April 21st, 2021, 1:46 pm

walr00s wrote:I agree that it seems unlikely that the needle valves are mechanically very different.

I just emailed with WLL and their techs seem to agree that mechanically the flow control across the two devices is the same. So that makes me wonder then why there's such a disparity in whether turning off the water completely makes such a difference to the health of the machine.

Why I think this is relevant is that I very much use the "zero flow" aspect for Prefusion purposes, as well as to control pressure during the process. For the pressure-profiling element, if I'm at 7-8 bars and want to reduce it to 3-5 (for example), I can't simply "reduce flow", I pretty much have to eliminate it to significantly reduce the pressure (and even then, I struggle for consistency here).

flow control makes a ton of sense during preinfusion, but except for tapered pressure/flow profiles, I don't really get the value otherwise. It's not like you can go from 2 to 8 to 4 and back to 8 over a 30 second period using flow alone (assuming this is somehow beneficial to the shot in the first place).

#14: Post by **threesips** » April 21st, 2021, 2:18 pm

On my Coffee Sensor flow control device, water stops flowing when the needle is almost--but not fully--seated. When I set it up, I turned the handle clockwise just until the point where the water stopped, loosened the set screw, and pushed the collar all the way down so the handle can't rotate past that point. (In my case, I put the handle at 12 o'clock when fully off.) As a result, I can cut the flow to zero without risk that the needle will become stuck or break off.

Does the needle on the Bianca have to be cranked all the way down to stop the water? I saw the Bella Barista video warning against setting the Bianca to zero flow. But in this video, Dave Corbey shows how to adjust the Bianca paddle to zero. It's the same way I did it on my device.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXpobQ5tud0

#15: Post by **Auctor** » April 21st, 2021, 5:28 pm

I just chatted with Jim @ 1st-Line about the Bianca and he confirmed that the needle damage is due to a person re-installing it improperly after opening it up.

Edit - I should clarify, he does not believe that changing the flow to zero will cause the machine damage (by itself), and he disagrees with the earlier video's contents. So to sum up, both machines (Bianca and Sync) are capable of zero flow with no apparent damage to either machine.

April 21st, 2021, 6:38 pm

Auctor wrote:So to sum up, both machines (Bianca and Sync) are capable of zero flow with no apparent damage to either machine.

There are numerous people with experiences that would speak to the contrary. Some of which are linked to in the threads above.

I like the idea of testing to see if the flow can be stopped at a point before the needle valve is totally seated. To be honest I don't really care about long ratio blooming shots but I do think pre-infusion has a meaningful place in high quality espresso.

#17: Post by **Auctor** » April 21st, 2021, 6:57 pm

PIXIllate wrote:There are numerous people with experiences that would speak to the contrary. Some of which are linked to in the threads above.

I re-read those as a courtesy - seems like something broke, but I saw no direct connection between "flow control set to zero" and broken gicluer.

PIXIllate wrote:To be honest I don't really care about long ratio blooming shots but I do think pre-infusion has a meaningful place in high quality espresso.

On this I think we can finally agree on something.

#18: Post by **SCespresso** » April 21st, 2021, 7:08 pm

I have been waiting to find the ECM flow control available (if it will be?) to add to my synchronika but no luck so far.

That being said, if you are plumbed in with line level preinfusion, how much different are the majority of the shots most people pull with flow control on e61? Is the tiny knob accurate enough/worth the drama?

April 21st, 2021, 7:15 pm

If I were plumbed in and could get 3-4ml/sec with line level preinfusion I wouldn't worry about the flow control. However, I very much think that the highly responsive group mounted pressure gauge is worth the expense all in itself.

iDrinkcoffee has both the ECM and Profitec Flow Controls in stock.

Note that the ECM kit comes with the extra stiffer spring and the Profitec one does not.

#20: Post by **SCespresso** » April 24th, 2021, 7:42 pm

Thanks for the heads up with the link. That site wasn't showing up when I googled.

I went ahead and placed an order, and will give it a good run through. I do wish for the price the pressure gauge matched the synchronika though