Hi everyone -

I love a good moka pot, and for years it's been my morning favorite. I went a couple of years without a dedicated espresso machine, and I learned to really appreciate the depth and nuance that moka pot can bring compared to drip methods.

I like a larger drink in the morning, because I enjoy sipping it more casually over a longer period of time. I could just continue to use the moka pot, but I'd like to give the Bianca as much use as possible.

My moka pot holds 8 ounces of water and I get about 220g out of it. The basket holds about 20g. Even with the most ambitious interpretation of a lungo - or even a cafe crema - we'd be at perhaps 140g versus the 220g I get out of the moka pot.

I now have the Bianca, and the thought occurred to me: How can I achieve something similar using the paddle for flow control?

So far, not really. I'd done a complete extraction of a 18g dose, coarse grind (more so than espresso let's say) and I've run it for 30, 45 and 60 seconds. I've done it at a full 9 bar the whole time, and a few at 1 to 2 bar the whole time.

Overall, it makes for a good result but it's just not the same as the moka pot in terms of its subtlety.

Has anyone bothered to try and do this? Any tips?

The extraction pressure is only around 1-2 bar.

Probably easier to fire up a moka pot than try to ride that low of a pressure with the paddle.

Some interesting details on moka-pot extraction at http://www.msc.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~p ... ticle2.pdf

You're the first person I've heard wanting to make espresso taste like moka. It's always the other way around. It's kind of impossible I think as the two are different in a number of ways. It's not just brew ratio and pressure. It's also the temperature profile. Moka starts really low, like around 40-50°C, and finishes high, frequently a little too high. I don't know if any programmable espresso machines can replicate that.

There is the Swiss espresso drink called the Caffè crema. It might be the closest thing but it's probably still not quite like moka.

I used to drink moka all the time. I loved the strength that it produced, in the 2-2.5% range. Then after a number of years I bought a Brikka, which is a variant type of moka pot. It produces a stronger beverage, 5-7%. I would almost always dilute it down to around 2-3%. Now I have an espresso machine and 9 out of 10 shots I do the same thing: I dilute an 8-10% shot down to 2-3%.

The diluted Brikka coffee didn't taste exactly like the moka pot coffee. It was better. And now the diluted espresso (long black, aka Americano) tastes even better still.

ojt wrote:Not the same but perhaps just adding some water could go close? Aka an americano.

I've never liked Americanos. For lack of a better description, they just don't taste integrated. They taste like diluted espresso

Jeff wrote:The extraction pressure is only around 1-2 bar.

Probably easier to fire up a moka pot than try to ride that low of a pressure with the paddle.

Some interesting details on moka-pot extraction at http://www.msc.univ-paris-diderot.fr/~p ... ticle2.pdf

That's an awesome resource, thank you! That's going to be my morning read, along with my poor attempt at turning my $3k machine into a moka pot.

As far as riding the pressure, I can hit the 1-2 bar range pretty easily and keep it there and it's generally stable through the whole extraction.

jpender wrote:You're the first person I've heard wanting to make espresso taste like moka. It's always the other way around. It's kind of impossible I think as the two are different in a number of ways. It's not just brew ratio and pressure. It's also the temperature profile. Moka starts really low, like around 40-50°C, and finishes high, frequently a little too high. I don't know if any programmable espresso machines can replicate that.

There is the Swiss espresso drink called the Caffè crema. It might be the closest thing but it's probably still not quite like moka.

I used to drink moka all the time. I loved the strength that it produced, in the 2-2.5% range. Then after a number of years I bought a Brikka, which is a variant type of moka pot. It produces a stronger beverage, 5-7%. I would almost always dilute it down to around 2-3%. Now I have an espresso machine and 9 out of 10 shots I do the same thing: I dilute an 8-10% shot down to 2-3%.

The diluted Brikka coffee didn't taste exactly like the moka pot coffee. It was better. And now the diluted espresso (long black, aka Americano) tastes even better still.

Great insight, thank you. I love a cafe crema, and it's what I drank most of the time when I lived in Germany.

Your description of the temperature profile makes a lot of sense. I would often control the moka pot flow through managing the temperature, because if you don't reduce the temperature toward the end you get a lot of sputtering and a burnt flavor. I never thought about that point, but it makes a lot of sense.

I've never liked an Americano, but given our shared enthusiasm for a longer pour I'll give it a shot. Any insights on your preferred ratio of espresso to added water or any other tips?

On an espresso machine equipped with flow control, I'd just adjust the flow to get about 1-bar at the group and pull a lungo. I'm not a big fan of Moka but I just tried it on my Synk and it came out as I recall. No appreciable crema and (to me) kind of funky tasting. My Moka pot sits on the shelf...has not been used in years.

Chadwick wrote:I would often control the moka pot flow through managing the temperature, because if you don't reduce the temperature toward the end you get a lot of sputtering and a burnt flavor.

You're waaaay ahead of most on moka-pot technique. As this will likely come up in searches in the future, here's James Hoffman's brief recommendations, which reinforce the wisdom of your experiences on the need to control temperature.

Chadwick wrote:I've never liked an Americano, but given our shared enthusiasm for a longer pour I'll give it a shot. Any insights on your preferred ratio of espresso to added water or any other tips?

While a long black (I dislike the term Americano) is in fact diluted espresso I'm not convinced that pulling a really long shot is better. In the end you have dissolved solids extracted from the beans and a lot of water. I think the quality of the extraction is more important than when the water is added. But I can believe that a Caffè crema tastes different than a long black.

As for ratio, I shoot for 2-3% strength. That's what I grew to like after years of drinking moka strength coffee. I've been pulling shots with 18g of beans and my cup, a 6oz cappuccino cup, comfortably holds about 140ml. So simple math... (18g dose) * (18-20% extraction)/(140g total beverage) = 2.3 to 2.6% strength.

The actual ratio of espresso to water depends on the size of the shot, which for me is usually in the 28-40g range, depending. So it could be as low as 28:112 = 1:4 or as high as 40:100 = 1:2.5. But that's not the way I think about it.