Medium-light roasts tasting sour since equipment upgrade?

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
Qrumcof
Posts: 95
Joined: 6 years ago

#1: Post by Qrumcof »

Moderator Note:
Discussion split from Monolith - End of Year Production Run Changes

DaveB wrote:The reason I wanted the conical was because I favor(ed) medium/dark roast at the time. Also, it was said to accentuate body and mouthfeel over the flat, at the expense of clarity and flavor separation. It was also said to have cleaner output, and grind faster.

I was under the impression that people chose the Max to MAXimize extractions of light roasts - after all, that's how it has been marketed from day one. However, with the ubiquity of flow-profiling capability of late, I would think its advantage has been nullified somewhat. FWIW, I'm currently getting fantastic results with light and medium-light roast beans on my humble MC3 with stock (non-Mazzer) burrs. I still love my medium-roast comfort blends for lattes/cortados as well as straight shots.

For those who can afford it, why not get the MC3 to go alongside the Max? Then you get the best of both worlds without the hassle (not to mention expense) of swapping burrs in an already great, purpose-built grinder.
Now you got me wondering if I should've bought the conical.

I bought a Synchronika a few months ago; was using the Mazzer mini (conical burrs), and I really liked the shots (I make cappuccinos; which is the only way I can discuss coffee flavors). But the flip doser thing was a dealbreaker. The ceado E37s grinder in retrospect worked well as a single dose grinder (the 58 mm tamper fits perfectly when you remove the hopper). Now I'm using a ML flat and I believe I am experiencing the flavor separation, But I'm learning I don't like that many coffees. Many of the medium light roasts taste sour to me (brewing at 194F). My favorite coffee so far is Filicori forte from Italy.

Advertisement
realbrotherjay
Posts: 59
Joined: 5 years ago

#2: Post by realbrotherjay »

Qrumcof wrote:...was using the Mazzer mini (conical burrs)...
AFAIK the only Mazzers that sport conical burrs are the Kony and the Robur, while the Minis are something like 58mm flat burrs. Definitely a different class of grinder from the MonoFlat but probably not all that much like the MonoCon either. If you typically like medium dark/dark roasts, then I imagine the Shuriken MD burrs will do well by you.
Qrumcof wrote:Many of the medium light roasts taste sour to me (brewing at 194F)
Sounds like underextraction due in part to insufficient brew temperature for lighter roasts. I'd typically think of brewing medium light/light roasts in the range of 198-201F depending on just how light they are. This certainly won't guarantee you'll all of a sudden start loving light roasts, but it should mitigate some of the sourness you find off-putting.

Enjoy the new grinder!

PIXIllate
Supporter ♡
Posts: 1331
Joined: 4 years ago

#3: Post by PIXIllate »

Qrumcof wrote: I bought a Synchronika a few months ago; Many of the medium light roasts taste sour to me (brewing at 194F). .


Try the coffees you are finding "sour" at higher temperatures (200-203C). Sour is just the extreme end of acidic. Brewing hotter changes the acidic/bitter balance more to the bitter end. If the shots get too bitter back the temperature off a bit. It should also be noted that you can't really trust that the temperature offset on your machine was calibrated properly from the factory. It could be that when your machine reads 194C it is actually at 188C, which would produce sour with a lot of coffees. See the following threads for a way to calibrate your machine without any extra equipment.

Profitec 600 Owner Experience
Getting accurate shot temperature displays on PIDed double boilers without a thermometer


Also, a lot of people confuse acidic and bitter.

You have serious gear and should be able to get most coffees to a place where they improve dramatically even if they never get to be your favorites. I recently had a light roast (generally speaking I'm not a fan) that after playing with it as I worked through the bag I got to a place where it was at least interesting to me.

Hope this helps.

baristainzmking
Supporter ♡
Posts: 1105
Joined: 6 years ago

#4: Post by baristainzmking »

I find that even at 201°F and with a profiling machine and Max, the light roasts just taste sour(ish) to me.. it's
Julia

PIXIllate
Supporter ♡
Posts: 1331
Joined: 4 years ago

#5: Post by PIXIllate replying to baristainzmking »

Have you calibrated the temperature offset on your Bianca? If not then I wouldn't assume 201C is 201C. See my above links for Jim's excellent tutorial on a Bianca and my experience on a Profitec 600. Temperature on some machine have been reported to be off by up to 10C!!

baristainzmking
Supporter ♡
Posts: 1105
Joined: 6 years ago

#6: Post by baristainzmking replying to PIXIllate »

Yes, I calibrated and adjusted the offset. :)
Julia

PIXIllate
Supporter ♡
Posts: 1331
Joined: 4 years ago

#7: Post by PIXIllate replying to baristainzmking »

Then you're probably just like me and don't like the modern bright espresso that is in fashion right now :)

Advertisement
baristainzmking
Supporter ♡
Posts: 1105
Joined: 6 years ago

#8: Post by baristainzmking replying to PIXIllate »

You may be right and I may be trying too hard to learn pull it and like it. I find that I don't like it straight and I don't like it with milk, as it gets lost in it. I do enjoy the light roasts as a pourover.. won't it be funny if I move Max on pour over duty permanently.. :wink:
Julia

pcrussell50
Posts: 4010
Joined: 15 years ago

#9: Post by pcrussell50 »

Chris and Julia... With flow control it's a wild frontier. Don't be afraid to break away from the old conventions. Some of us have been pulling light roasts at 205 and 206degF. Figure your offsets out so you have high confidence in the temperature at your groups. And don't forget long pre infusion to tame acidity. And with a Max, definitely consider ristrettos... even with light roasts, (another rule to break): Short and hot over 50s or more duration with a Max and a flow profiling machine. Sounds crazy. But no... not in the cup.
Bluenoser wrote: Watch the recent video from Decent about his research into increased reliability (that he gleaned from a high-volume consumer coffee co) that led to his using and adapting more flexible water pipes that don't fatigue with thermal cycling.
This is they key with my machine... Along with multiple PIDs culminating in a PID controlled heated group itself. Brilliant stuff for reliability and walk up and pull, temperature stability. John had the right idea when he looked at the more modern machines on the market while envisaging the Decent.

-Peter
LMWDP #553

baristainzmking
Supporter ♡
Posts: 1105
Joined: 6 years ago

#10: Post by baristainzmking »

pcrussel50 wrote:Chris and Julia... With flow control it's a wild frontier. Don't be afraid to break away from the old conventions. Some of us have been pulling light roasts at 205 and 206degF. Figure your offsets out so you have high confidence in the temperature at your groups. And don't forget long pre infusion to tame acidity. And with a Max, definitely consider ristrettos... even with light roasts, (another rule to break): Short and hot over 50s or more duration with a Max and a flow profiling machine. Sounds crazy. But no... not in the cup.
I like my coffee hot, so 205 or 206 sounds kinda nice with long preifusion, short shot, 50 seconds...
Julia

Post Reply