Long pour but sour espresso

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benddd
Posts: 13
Joined: 3 years ago

#1: Post by benddd »

Im currently using a sage barista express and I'm having a lot of issues with taste. Im using a baratza sette 270 as a grinder. 18 grams in > 36 grams out in 30-35 ( since barista express has 10 second preinfusion Im accounting for that and going 30-35 instead of 25-30 ). I've tried going finer and going 38s or even 40/40+ seconds, they all tasted sour. Tried 4 different types of beans all freshly roasted ( 14 days to 30 days max ) to no avail.

If I go any coarser i'll have a lot of channeling, any finer and it would still be extremly sour. It still has a lot of channeling even though I'm making sure the coffee bed is even, and using a toothpick to break up any clumps. Also using a distributor and making sure I tamp hard enough. Temp is 95c.
I tried going to an extreme 44 second shot with 20 grams in 40 grams out and it was still sour. The 44 second shot had a lot less splatter everywhere but it still seemed extreme to have this timer and a sour shot, its not like I should go any further.

Only other thing I can think of is to open up the machine and change the bar pressure from 15 to 9, but that messes with the steam pressure since its a single boiler machine. Any thoughts?

njtnjt
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#2: Post by njtnjt »

Try 16 grams of coffee and a finer grind.
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benddd (original poster)
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#3: Post by benddd (original poster) »

Tried that. Channeling won't stop. The espresso is so acidic that it might as well go through the cup like real acid.

tennisman03110
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#4: Post by tennisman03110 »

Couple thoughts.

First, is it actually sour and acidic? Maybe you're an experienced taster, but it takes time.

A toothpick is too thick for WDT. I recently made a tool with wine cork and printer needles, it's a big change from my previous. Which was a single probe, but thinner than a toothpick.

If it's sour, extract more. Don't stop at 1:2, pull a shot 1:3. Maybe it's near a minute -- that's fine.

Can the Express increase temperature? If so, increase temperature. If not, try more developed roasts.
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benddd (original poster)
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#5: Post by benddd (original poster) »

tennisman03110 wrote:Couple thoughts.

First, is it actually sour and acidic? Maybe you're an experienced taster, but it takes time.


I drank it alone and then tried it as cortado, it had this sourness that you never taste in milk based drinks. Like lemon in your latte. I gave it to a couple of my family members without saying anything about the taste beforehand to not create a bias and they said it was sour aswell.
tennisman03110 wrote: A toothpick is too thick for WDT. I recently made a tool with wine cork and printer needles, it's a big change from my previous. Which was a single probe, but thinner than a toothpick.
pretty creative, I'm not sure if this is a big contributing factor to the sourness but ill give it a try.
tennisman03110 wrote: If it's sour, extract more. Don't stop at 1:2, pull a shot 1:3. Maybe it's near a minute -- that's fine.
I think this might be a decent solution but I drink milk based drinks and if I do so the cortado or flatwhite just tastes like water which isnt very nice.
tennisman03110 wrote: Can the Express increase temperature? If so, increase temperature. If not, try more developed roasts.
Im currently at 95c which is the max for the express. The roasts of the beans I have are medium which is the most common. I'll give medium/dark medium a try but I really enjoy the notes of medium coffee which would be unfortuate to lose.

mycatsnameisbernie
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#6: Post by mycatsnameisbernie »

Sour is caused by under-extraction. The normal cure for under-extraction is:
  • Increase dose:yield ratio
  • Improve puck prep (improve distribution and reduce channeling)
  • Increase temperature
The above items may have a bigger impact on flavor than changing the grind. Refer to the Espresso Compass for more info.

It sounds like your machine is set to its max temperature, but are you pre-heating your portafilter and group before pulling your shots? This is done by pulling a couple of blank shots (water only) through the portafilter before dosing it.

As was previously commented, a toothpick is too thick for WDT as its thickness can compress the grinds as you are stirring them up. And distributors often do more harm than good. Are you seeing clumps from your Sette? If not, you might not need WDT at all. If so, use the thinnest thing you can find (i.e. a needle) to WDT. Try skipping the distributor. Make sure you are sharply tapping your portafilter on the countertop before firmly tamping.

You refer to your machine's 10 second pre-infusion, but you can control the pre-infusion interval by pulling your shots in fully manual mode. On my BE, I pre-infuse until the first drops appear, then let go of the button.

If none of this helps, and/or you are unwilling to increase your ratio, then the issue might be your beans. You might want to try a different medium roast and/or a darker roast.

Are you using this equipment for the first time? If not, did you previously get better results? If so, what changed?

My understanding is that the BE's OPV is set at the factory to about 12 to 14 bar as measured statically. Pressure when actually brewing a shot will be less due to the flow. I get great shots with my BE (when used with a good grinder) at the factory setting and I never felt the need to lower the brew pressure. But if you do, there are videos online about how to adjust the OPV or replace it with a brass one that is more easily adjustable. This will not affect the machine's steaming ability.
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benddd (original poster)
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#7: Post by benddd (original poster) »

Hey thanks for taking the time to reply. It's great getting feedback from people who are using the same setup as Im fairly new to this new passion of mine.
mycatsnameisbernie wrote: It sounds like your machine is set to its max temperature, but are you pre-heating your portafilter and group before pulling your shots? This is done by pulling a couple of blank shots (water only) through the portafilter before dosing it.


So I preheat my machine for about 30 mins and I do pull a couple of shots through the portafilter just to clean it up and pre heat it. I read in so many places that this helps and I've been doing it consistently for a while.
mycatsnameisbernie wrote: As was previously commented, a toothpick is too thick for WDT as its thickness can compress the grinds as you are stirring them up. And distributors often do more harm than good. Are you seeing clumps from your Sette? If not, you might not need WDT at all. If so, use the thinnest thing you can find (i.e. a needle) to WDT. Try skipping the distributor. Make sure you are sharply tapping your portafilter on the countertop before firmly tamping.


unfortunately, there are significant clumps in my sette. What Im using to break them up is a wooden toothpick which is thin but might not be the thinnest thing in my house hold.

So you're saying that distributing them after breaking up the clumps is doing me more harm than good? that's pretty interensting but Ill try to break the clumps and skip distributing and see what result I get.
mycatsnameisbernie wrote: You refer to your machine's 10 second pre-infusion, but you can control the pre-infusion interval by pulling your shots in fully manual mode. On my BE, I pre-infuse until the first drops appear, then let go of the button.
Yeah that's also what I do most of the time. It takes about 8-9 seconds to see the first drops. I just don't like that it defaults to 10 seconds which implies its what it needs.
mycatsnameisbernie wrote: If none of this helps, and/or you are unwilling to increase your ratio, then the issue might be your beans. You might want to try a different medium roast and/or a darker roast.

Are you using this equipment for the first time? If not, did you previously get better results? If so, what changed?
Ill try to increase the ratio at a spot where its not sour anymore but also not too watery. I dont think its the beans honestly because all the types that I got are pretty well developed. Also yes this is the first machine for espresso I ever owned and same goes to the grinder. I've only been learning how to make espresso for about 5 months so Im fairly new to this.
mycatsnameisbernie wrote:My understanding is that the BE's OPV is set at the factory to about 12 to 14 bar as measured statically. Pressure when actually brewing a shot will be less due to the flow. I get great shots with my BE (when used with a good grinder) at the factory setting and I never felt the need to lower the brew pressure. But if you do, there are videos online about how to adjust the OPV or replace it with a brass one that is more easily adjustable. This will not affect the machine's steaming ability.
The issue is there is so much channeling going on all the time and the cups never look clean after pulling shots there is just splatter everywhere. The only way to remedy this is to go extremely fine and the shot looks much cleaner, just doesn't taste good.

Im pretty confused with what to do. Ill try breaking up clumps without distributing or using something thinner for WDT. Another thing Ill try is to find a ratio where I can yield more but not to the point where its too watery. Maybe 20 in 45 out?
Also Im curios how many seconds does it take to extract great shots in your BE? Again thanks for taking the time.

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Jeff
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#8: Post by Jeff »

I think what Mycats... was getting at is that distribution itself is important but that at least some of us believe that distribution tools do little more than make the top of the puck pretty looking. There are some reasonable arguments that these tools can make things worse in the cup.

benddd (original poster)
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#9: Post by benddd (original poster) replying to Jeff »

Its quite interesting.. I made research on the topic and found this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CCW2ctpH6w where he shows that the method of least extraction is the one with the tool. I genuinely believe the main source of my "sourness" is the uneven extraction whether it be from the tool itself or just bad prep. Curious to try out different or just improve my prep method and see how the shots are like.

tennisman03110
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#10: Post by tennisman03110 »

My Breville Duo Temp, with the same grinder, produced good shots within 30 seconds, on average. That was before WDT, no leveler tool. I did (and still do) grind into the large cup, shake it up, and pour back into the portafilter. It helped me quite a bit.

The coffee I used was Black and White "The Classic", which was a bit more developed, for them. I did not have a bottomless portafilter, so it was hard to tell if I had splattering or channeling. It appeared even on each end of the flow.

Not until I upgraded to the Dual Boiler did I find success in a wider variety of coffee. I've also added WDT to my prep. My shots rarely splatter, and show nice even extraction with a bottomless portafilter.

Pics or video of your prep and a shot would help. Got any?

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