Light roast espresso with the Niche Zero

#1: Post by **FineGrinder** » May 18th, 2023, 12:13 pm

Hi everyone,

I'm relatively new to espresso (~6 months experience) and I have a Decent DE1 and Niche Zero in my setup and I have been really struggling with dialling in lighter roast espressos.

The issue I have is that my espressos taste quite sour and under-extracted no matter what I do. I start my dialling in process by following the roaster's recommendation if they have one, otherwise, I will start a light roast aiming for a 1:2.5 in ~30s at 93-96ºC on the default profile and make adjustments from there.

Once I am in the ballpark of the right numbers, my espressos still taste sharp, sour, and under-extracted. At this point, if I adjust my variables to increase extraction e.g. grinding even finer to >35s times, going above 96ºC, pulling longer at 1:3, etc. the espressos become quite astringent, even through milk.

I have tried throwing the kitchen sink at it to increase my extraction by using paper filters with a finer grind, more advanced profiles like blooming, etc. and these all make a difference but I'm still stuck between sour or astringent and I'm still struggling to replicate the espressos produced at local specialty coffee shops.

I stumbled across some comments here where people have commented on how the Niche Zero isn't really suited for lighter roast espresso because of its PSD and I'm finally beginning to question whether it's the style of the grinder/burrs not being suited to lighter roasts. I have no trouble dialling in more traditional medium-dark roasts to taste great but anything light with acidity is either too sour or suddenly becomes astringent with seemingly no sweet spot in between.

For additional info, I use Third Wave Water (espresso profile), WDT, paper filter, and a puck screen too.

I'd appreciate any help. Thanks.

#2: Post by **Jeff** » May 18th, 2023, 12:51 pm

What is "light" for you?

As context, there is a class of DE1 users who nod their head to comparisons such as "Dark, like Tim Wendelboe dark".

With what I consider medium-light and lighter coffees, ones with little if any "roast" flavors, I'd stay away from the almost all of the profiles delivered with the machine's default software. Ignore the "adaptive" profiles and any of the ones that claim to emulate some other machine. Joe D's Extractamundo Dos! is one of the few that is now available through the software-update channel that actually works well for high-quality, light-roast espresso.

The Niche Zero is challenging to work with for light-roast espresso. One can push the extraction into the 21-23% range with good technique and an appropriate extraction profile. However there is a fine line between increasing the extraction to get balance and heading into astringency.

You might consider different water. TWW isn't one that I'd recommend for light-roast espresso.

#3: Post by **espressoren** » May 18th, 2023, 12:53 pm

The Niche may not be ideal for every case (usually pouriver/filter is the weak spot) but as far as espresso it should be capable of making a decent cup with a wide range of beans and roasts.

In your experience, what is your ideal light roast setup that you know works? What are you comparing to as far as equipment/beans/process where you got a great light roast extraction?

#4: Post by **another_jim** » May 18th, 2023, 2:08 pm

1) Use a regular doubte basket and lower doses -- 14 to 15 grams. Aletrnatively use the VST or Strada 15 gram.
2) Do not be afraid to grind very fine. If you use their calibration point, you may need to go below 0, not the 10 to 20 range.

The knock on conical burrs is this: To do very light roasts, you need to grind very fine and dose approriately (i.e. lower), regardless of the grinder type. Conical burrs at ultra fine grinds can produce somewhat flat tasting shots, whereas the best flat burrs can produce livelier, but still balanced shots at very fine grinds.

Personally, I do not find the difference compelling utnil you get to very expensive and ultra-aligned flats, so I use the Niche for all my light roasts. Disclosure: I do regard Wendelboe's, Manhattan's and Howell's roasts as light. I home roast 75% of the coffee I drink, and roast a tad darker than these worthies.

May 18th, 2023, 5:15 pm

I consider light to be anything free of caramelisation/roast flavours e.g. Wendelboe, Sey, DAK, Friedhats, etc. Although I have been struggling with medium-light too where the coffee has a good amount of acidity with some roast flavours e.g. where there are tasting notes of chocolate/nuts/fruit e.g. Square Mile's Red Brick.

I will give Extractamundo Dos a try but for my understanding, what makes it a better profile than the others?

What kind of water do you recommend for light roast espresso? I have some sodium bicarb and magnesium sulfate so I can make up my own profile to try. I do enjoy the convenience of using sachets but I'm open to experimenting with other water.

May 18th, 2023, 5:19 pm

I haven't used another setup to have a point of comparison but I have had enjoyable light roast espresso at cafes where they use Slayer's and La Marzocco machines (flat 9 bar). These are typically paired with an Anfim or one of the Mahlkoenig's E65/E80.

espressoren wrote:The Niche may not be ideal for every case (usually pouriver/filter is the weak spot) but as far as espresso it should be capable of making a decent cup with a wide range of beans and roasts.

In your experience, what is your ideal light roast setup that you know works? What are you comparing to as far as equipment/beans/process where you got a great light roast extraction?

May 18th, 2023, 5:21 pm

I consider light to be anything free of caramelisation/roast flavours e.g. Wendelboe, Sey, DAK, Friedhats, etc. Although I have been struggling with medium-light too where the coffee has a good amount of acidity with some roast flavours e.g. where there are tasting notes of chocolate/nuts/fruit e.g. Square Mile's Red Brick.

I will give Extractamundo Dos a try but for my understanding, what makes it a better profile than the others?

What kind of water do you recommend for light roast espresso? I have some sodium bicarb and magnesium sulfate so I can make up my own profile to try. I do enjoy the convenience of using sachets but I'm open to experimenting with other water.

Jeff wrote:What is "light" for you?

As context, there is a class of DE1 users who nod their head to comparisons such as "Dark, like Tim Wendelboe dark".

With what I consider medium-light and lighter coffees, ones with little if any "roast" flavors, I'd stay away from the almost all of the profiles delivered with the machine's default software. Ignore the "adaptive" profiles and any of the ones that claim to emulate some other machine. Joe D's Extractamundo Dos! is one of the few that is now available through the software-update channel that actually works well for high-quality, light-roast espresso.

The Niche Zero is challenging to work with for light-roast espresso. One can push the extraction into the 21-23% range with good technique and an appropriate extraction profile. However there is a fine line between increasing the extraction to get balance and heading into astringency.

You might consider different water. TWW isn't one that I'd recommend for light-roast espresso.

May 18th, 2023, 5:25 pm

Thanks for this suggestion. I'll try lowering the dose to see if that helps.

Am I right in understanding that the lower dose is better because it enables you to grind finer and there is less "work" to do in extracting enough from the smaller dose of coffee? My understanding is that you can only go so low until you start dealing with channeling, especially with lighter roasts.

I can't imagine grinding fine enough to go anywhere near 0. Once I am in the 7-8 range (with an 18g dose), the shot is almost choking and I am up at 40s or more in shot times. I'll try the lower doses and see how fine I can go.

another_jim wrote:1) Use a regular doubte basket and lower doses -- 14 to 15 grams. Aletrnatively use the VST or Strada 15 gram.
2) Do not be afraid to grind very fine. If you use their calibration point, you may need to go below 0, not the 10 to 20 range.

The knock on conical burrs is this: To do very light roasts, you need to grind very fine and dose approriately (i.e. lower), regardless of the grinder type. Conical burrs at ultra fine grinds can produce somewhat flat tasting shots, whereas the best flat burrs can produce livelier, but still balanced shots at very fine grinds.

Personally, I do not find the difference compelling utnil you get to very expensive and ultra-aligned flats, so I use the Niche for all my light roasts. Disclosure: I do regard Wendelboe's, Manhattan's and Howell's roasts as light. I home roast 75% of the coffee I drink, and roast a tad darker than these worthies.

#9: Post by **another_jim** » May 18th, 2023, 5:52 pm

The resistance of the puck is a product of the dose weight and grind fineness. So the lower you dose, the finer you must grind to maintain the same puck reistance. If you choke 18 grams at an 8 setting, you'll defitely choce it at a 4 setting. But if you drop to 14 grams, you will probably be in the ballpark, and get a more balanced tasting shot.

#10: Post by **Jeff** » May 18th, 2023, 6:05 pm

Extractamundo Dos! came as an evolution of the ideas of many people, including Stephane Ribes and Luca (same Luca as here). Rather than being a marketing ploy, it was the result of many people trying different things with different coffees. There's a good discussion of it at https://pocketsciencecoffee.com/2022/05 ... actamundo/ (by Rohan, if you are active in the Decent Discord or DecentForum). When Ray finally convinced John to allow "limiters" (non-linear behavior near a flow/pressure goal), many of the challenges with flow-driven extraction were eased. Extractamundo Dos! basically took manual selection among a half-dozen or more parameterized profiles, all the same except for a change in, for example, peak pressure, and automated it, based on how the puck was behaving at the moment. Note that this is very different than the arguably bogus "best" or "adaptive" profiles that are promoted by JB.

When I was pulling La Cabra, Tim Wendelboe, Coffee Collective ("filter" for all), and similar on the Niche Zero, I was usually around 5-15 marks somewhere, depending on origin. I was typically dosing 17 g in a VST 18. VST baskets are notably better in the cup than DE baskets. My flow rates were typically around 2.5 g/s in the latter parts of the shot using pressure profiles based on Luca's profiles from a couple of years ago or Nu Skool v2. (I did not find v3 worked well with the Niche Zero.) My peak extraction pressures were typically in the 4-6 bar range. I would typically push the grind finer and finer until astringency hit, then back off a tiny bit. I've been using lower temperatures and declining temperature profiles for a few years now. I don't recall if Extractamundo Dos! came out before I sold my Niche Zero or not. For water, I found that 64 MPs or 98 HUs provided better results for me with high buffer (20/80 ppm GH/KH) compared to my moderate filtered tap. I don't know that higher buffer helps the Niche Zero.