I have had this 25-35 second "rule" in my brain like cement. So are you saying, even if it was a 20 second shot, it could still taste good? I guess I'm thinking it has to at least hit 25 seconds or will be sour, under extracted--as it came out too fast & had to turn it off by 20 seconds because it was blonding. Honestly, maybe it is me, but when I let too much of the blonding get in the cup--it is sour. I 'm not talking thin & translucent--but blonding too much. Weird how certain "rules" can get solidified into one's brain. I'm sure I've tasted the 20 second shots that didn't taste different than the 25 second shots.

It sounds like an E37S holds 2-4 g or more inside.

This can be frustrating as changing the grind isn't "complete" in that first basket. Grinding through 5 g or so and discarding after making a change helps that first basket to be at the new grind throughout. Using a "puffer" of some sort to blow out the older grinds works on many grinders as well. One way or another, you end up discarding. Same goes for first shot of the day. You've got a few grams of day-old grinds in there.

Edit: With some grinders, using a puffer with every shot can reduce that retention to a small fraction of a gram. I don't know about the E37S, but perhaps there are some suggestions and experiences in the single-dosing thread on the first link.

JP2019 wrote:Absolutely agree with this. I am still off on my timing a bit and still practicing. I get the worse tasting espresso lol. Super sour almost 70% of the time, and bitter the other. Have yet to hit a sweet spot. Yesterday was by far the worse. I think I also find that when I make small adjustments, from coarse to fine, or fine to course, my weight from grinder comes out different and then I start trying to adjust based on that. I heard it takes a few shots to get the new setting in place. Is that true? Just seems like such a waste. So far, from a taste perspective, I am failing, but channeling is def improved, haha.

I am using a Colombian blend. The roaster told me what timing to aim for. 19 g, 38 g out in 27 secs. I got close... about 3 seconds off. That extraction was gross lol. I almost through up because of the sourness. Such a challenging skill to learn.

Yep... when dialing in a new blend I take small slurps and have a glass of water standing by to rinse out my mouth just in case it tastes REALLY bad.
And yes, its true ... the weight variations you are experiencing from coarse to fine is not unexpected.

The E37S is a awesome grinder... but the finer the grind the greater the potential for retention between changes in grinder settings. (and vice versa) Not sure what method you are using for excavating retention (puffer) between changes in coffees or grinder settings but be aware the although the E37S can single dose into a portafilter its not a zero retention grinder. With the E37S retention can be as low as 2-3gr on average but can be as much as 5 to 7 grams. This means the first shot you take after making a grinder adjustment is getting anywhere from 2 to 7 grams of the coffee at the previous grind which will throw off the taste of the first shot after the setting change. Unfortunately this is the biggest hurdle with when attempting to use any large commercial grinder in the home to single dose. Heck, even the Ceado E37SD (regardless of the advertising claims) is not perfect at being a zero retention single dose grinder.

A while back I modified my much loved Mazzer Mini with Daniel Wongs single dosing mod While it worked great at dosing to the PF... the retention made me crazy due to the weight variance from shot to shot when dialing in and thus required that I weigh and adjust every single before extraction. (I eventually broke down and got a Niche Zero)

Anyway... the good news is once you've calibrated your grinder (i.e., found the ideal grind setting for your particular bean) the retention becomes consistent from grind to grind. In other words, yes, you might leave 2gr behind after each grind, so your next grind (which may be the following day), will get the 2gr of retention left in the grinder from the day before. If you don't like the idea of brewing the day old retention simply grind 2 or 3 grams before grinding and pulling your first shot of the day to chase out yesterdays retention.

It sounds like you're close to getting the grinder dialed in. If you're still getting bad shots, it may be worth looking at the brew temperature of the espresso machine.

I tried going from 201 to 200 in temp. How do you know what needs adjusting from the temp side of things? I just constantly get sour or bitter. When I think I just have it, the next shot gets worse. I have eliminated channeling for the most part, now its just taste.

I talked to the roaster and he recommended 19g in 27 secs. That just tasted awful. Again, it comes out more sour. I tried timing by first drip vs lever pull. No luck. Also, when I add in milk, I can only do like 3-4oz before it just taste like milk vs a good balanced latte/capp. Can't lie, I am losing hope! I wonder if I just dont know what a good espresso is suppose to be. I keep hearing how there is a sweet spot and that it wont be sour or bitter, but smooth and sweet. I just havent gotten there. When I taste the espresso, it has a very acidic punch and then goes sour, or bitter.

I am wondering if I should try a darker roast. Maybe I just need something more with chocolate notes and less with fruit?

Thanks guys for the continued support! I tried reaching out to WLL and they were pretty useless with some standard tips...

Even after years of experience, I've had periods where I wonder if I've lost my touch, or just don't like espresso any more. Not being able to visit cafes and sample what others are preparing, good and bad both, adds to the challenge these days.

A couple threads worth reading that might provide some insight are

Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste

Newbie: Flow color vs weight to stop extraction

Remember too that mediocre coffee can only make mediocre espresso. Especially with bitterness, it may be in the beans from the roast. Acidity can be in the beans as an intentional choice of lively, bright flavors. When it goes to sourness it is often an extraction problem (grind, dose, prep, flow rate (pressure), ratio, temperature, ...)

Roasters' recommendations, for me, are a guideline for a starting point, even from top-tier roasters. Their equipment and water aren't mine. I don't look much past shorter/normal/longer and cooler/normal/warmer, and then only if the general guidelines (linked above) don't get me to a good shot based on my usual benchmark for ratio and time for the general class of coffee (mainly light vs. medium-dark, for me).

Now that you seem to have reasonably uniform extraction, I'd shoot for a 1:2 ratio, blonding (see second link) around 25-30 seconds. Let your shots cool a bit. Hot coffee just tastes hot. It's hard to pick anything out before it cools a bit. (I don't heat my cups and use heavy porcelain ones to help speed cooling.) Stir, don't swirl. Espresso doesn't come out uniform with time and the early portions tend to sit on the bottom. I personally think crema is a bitter byproduct and the first sip of an unstirred shot will be dominated by its flavors. Taste every shot along the way, even if you toss the rest in the sink. If you note how it tastes "bad" and what the change is to the next shot, some of dialing in becomes more intuitive.

For me, temperature changes are often the last thing I try, only after grind, ratio, and dose aren't getting me what I want. If I get to that point, it seems that a 2°F change is often the smallest that makes a clearly noticeable difference. Just like old grinds in the grinder bleeding into the shot after a grind change, it takes a while for most machines to stabilize at a new temperature. Just because the PID has gone up or down doesn't mean the rest of the group has. You might want to wait 10 minutes or more after changing the temperature (guessing that the time constant for an E61 is around 10 minutes from its 40-min full stabilization time)

Frustrating at first, experience with your coffees, grinder, and machine eventually make a lot of it intuitive. I had a previous version of the "tuning" post printed out next to my machine for a long time. I still scratch my head sometimes and wonder on certain coffees.

Now that you seem to have a better understanding of your grinder, you don't seem to be able to tweak your parameters to get a shot you like. Consider that you may not like the coffee you have as espresso. I read that you are using a Colombian and your roaster gave you parameters. If you have not tried the coffee at the coffee shop or roastery, it is possible that you don't like it. Personally, I have not found a Colombian that I really like as espresso and after a few meh, experiences I have stayed away from them. I thought it was just me, but a few weeks ago I came across this thread:
Is Colombian coffee suppose to be sour? And how to tame it?
Post #2 by TomC made me feel more confident about what I had learned from my experiences. Tom has a lot of experience and I have found his advice on coffee selection to be very good.

Thanks so much Jeff! Very helpful advice. Going to check out the articles provided in the last two post. This definitely gives me more confidence to keep trying.

Lancelot, I think you are right. I think I was getting better shots with medium to darker roast. My favorite espresso is Italian. Just can't find a fresh bag or roaster here in VA that does it in that fashion.

Any recommendations or what brands that most people seem to recommend? I tried WLL and they sent me really old beans so I refuse to order there for coffee.

JP2019 wrote:I tried going from 201 to 200 in temp. How do you know what needs adjusting from the temp side of things? I just constantly get sour or bitter. When I think I just have it, the next shot gets worse. I have eliminated channeling for the most part, now its just taste.

I talked to the roaster and he recommended 19g in 27 secs. That just tasted awful. Again, it comes out more sour. I tried timing by first drip vs lever pull. No luck. Also, when I add in milk, I can only do like 3-4oz before it just taste like milk vs a good balanced latte/capp. Can't lie, I am losing hope! I wonder if I just dont know what a good espresso is suppose to be. I keep hearing how there is a sweet spot and that it wont be sour or bitter, but smooth and sweet. I just havent gotten there. When I taste the espresso, it has a very acidic punch and then goes sour, or bitter.

I am wondering if I should try a darker roast. Maybe I just need something more with chocolate notes and less with fruit?

Thanks guys for the continued support! I tried reaching out to WLL and they were pretty useless with some standard tips...

It sounds like you've minimized the grinder variables. Brew temperatures probably need your focus now. Sour shots are an indication of low brew temps. Bitter means high brew temps. Getting consistent brew temps on an E61 machine takes some skill and patience. There are many tips on the site on how to do this. A medium roast coffee with less acidity is also easier to dial in, too.

JP2019 wrote:Thanks so much Jeff! Very helpful advice. Going to check out the articles provided in the last two post. This definitely gives me more confidence to keep trying.

Lancelot, I think you are right. I think I was getting better shots with medium to darker roast. My favorite espresso is Italian. Just can't find a fresh bag or roaster here in VA that does it in that fashion.

Any recommendations or what brands that most people seem to recommend? I tried WLL and they sent me really old beans so I refuse to order there for coffee.

I'd always recommend getting your beans directly from the roaster. Big Trouble from Counter Culture Coffee is an excellent coffee and easy to work with.