Italian vs. American dosing - Page 5

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
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IamOiman
Team HB

#41: Post by IamOiman »

Moka 1 Cup wrote:I have a question. How much of the coffee that sits
in the doser gets actually significantly exposed to air?
As Rob said above, it depends on how busy the bar is. My bar manager friend tells me it can be anywhere from less than 15 minutes to 45 minutes sitting in the doser. Other bars may be longer or shorter. My experience with almost every bar in Italy is they use a doser grinder rather than doserless. However, my manager's bar will switch out the old coffee when it sits for a while to at least ensure some freshness. I have not noticed any significant change in taste over all the espresso I have drank there. The coffee will sit in the hopper and can become stale, but since it is in a commercial setting it usually does not affect the taste too much.
-Ryan
Using a spice grinder violates the Geneva Convention
LMWDP #612

cafederoberto

#42: Post by cafederoberto »

It's hard to say. But that place in Modena definitely challenged my beliefs a bit about espresso and only using freshly ground coffee. I read somewhere about pre grinding fresh roasts to age them a bit before pulling shots. There may be something to that.

On the other extreme, I used to visit this Cafe in downtown Melbourne called Axil. They used Robur grinders and a Kees van der westen machine. And before making my low tide long blacks, they'd always purge 2 full portafilter baskets straight into the trash! That being said, they never served me anything less than an A+ coffee...

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Moka 1 Cup

#43: Post by Moka 1 Cup »

Thank you. However my question was a little different. Let me rephrase it. In addition to the fact that the coffee usually does not sit in the doser for a long time , what is the % of coffee (in the doser) that is actually in contact with the air during that small amount of time. I would assume only a small portion on top. I may be wrong of course, and that's why I am asking.
Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness.

cafederoberto

#44: Post by cafederoberto »

It's hard to say how much air can come up from the doser chute and into the coffee grounds pile from below. Likely not much. And then likely there is some air contact at the top of the grounds pile. Then what's the effect from air contact as the fresh grinds leave the burrs and make the quick journey down onto the grounds pile. Who knows.

I would hypothesize that the fresher your coffee, the more resistant is that ground coffee to degradation of flavor compounds via oxidation and other environmental effects. But I'm just a coffee snob speculating here.

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yakster
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#45: Post by yakster »

In a busy Italian cafe, the coffee doesn't sit in the doser long.
-Chris

LMWDP # 272

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Moka 1 Cup

#46: Post by Moka 1 Cup »

Today I was in a bar-pizzeria near Treviso (not too far from Venice).
They had two double spouted portafilters and one single spouted.
I asked what they were using with the single spout and it was the 7gr basket.

Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness.

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Moka 1 Cup

#47: Post by Moka 1 Cup »

Two more places, not too far from Milan, today.

First picture was at a busy Autogrill, on one of the main highways. Two portafilters were dedicated to singles. I did not take a picture of the basket but they looked like the usual 7gr single basket shown in the previous picture. When I ordered a single the bartender grabbed one of those two portafilters but then another customer asked for a sigle as well so he switched to one of the the double spouted.



The second and third pictures were taken at a regular bar.






Posting just to show how the idea of pulling two singles and throwing one away when one customer alone asks for a single is not very common in Italy. If you see it happening it's probably an exception not the rule.
Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness.

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another_jim
Team HB

#48: Post by another_jim »

Notice the precisely made double sided tamper; one side for the double, the other for the single. I'm guessing one of the reasons people here have a hard time with single shots is missing gear, especially single tampers properly matched to the baskets being used.
Jim Schulman

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IamOiman
Team HB

#49: Post by IamOiman replying to another_jim »

I'll counter that with Coffee Point and Smart Oil (two bars in Gricignano di Aversa). They both utilize a single tamper size for both double and single baskets, and I have found little difference at all between the quality of the shot itself. One of the tampers is very cheap and battered aluminum yet the espresso yielded from these machines are excellent.


-Ryan
Using a spice grinder violates the Geneva Convention
LMWDP #612

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another_jim
Team HB

#50: Post by another_jim »

It's a lever machine; you only need a courtesy tamp. :wink:
Jim Schulman