Italian vs. American dosing - Page 2

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks.
ceoloide

Postby ceoloide » May 31, 2018, 5:55 pm

For the geeks out there, here is the technical disciplinary written by the Italian coffee committee on how to prepare a traditional Italian espresso.

For those who can't read Italian ( :D ) here's the summary:

  • Pressure >= 8 bar
  • Extraction flow between 0.48 g/s and 1.3 g/s, measured from time of the first drop.
  • Extraction temperature between 90 C (194 F) and 96 C (204.8 F)
  • Ground coffee between 7g and 9g
  • TDS >= 5%
  • Liquid in the cup between 13g and 26g
  • Crema should cover the entirety of the cup and persist for at least 120s, no stirring. During those 120s no holes should appear that let you see the coffee through the crema.
  • Extraction time between 20s and 27s, measured from time of the first drop.
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RapidCoffee
Team HB

Postby RapidCoffee » May 31, 2018, 6:18 pm

ceoloide wrote:For the geeks out there, here is the technical disciplinary written by the Italian coffee committee on how to prepare a traditional Italian espresso.

This is much better than the old INEI recipe, which specified extraction volume (25ml) rather than weight. Brew ratios in the new recipe are roughly 30-60%, what most of us would consider a range from lungo to normale.
John

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another_jim
Team HB

Postby another_jim » Jun 01, 2018, 8:39 am

I also like the change of extraction timing, measuring from the first drop. Given the huge differences in preinfusion times, this is a good change.
Jim Schulman

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redbone

Postby redbone » Jun 01, 2018, 9:22 am

Visiting relatives last year in Sicily I found the espresso shot they drank to be very small in volume to what I consume. I felt that the shot volume coated the tongue with little left remaining to pass the throat. They were also found of granita and brioche for breakfast but that's another story. I did adapt. BTW if ever in Noto (where my grandfather was from) one must go to Caffè Sicilia for their desserts and gelato.
Between order and chaos there is espresso.
Semper discens.


Rob
LMWDP #549

BaristaBob

Postby BaristaBob » Jun 01, 2018, 11:01 am

Just to echo what most have said here...I received my barista certification in Sydney, Australia a few years back. I pulled out my written class notes and sure enough, even in the land down under it says 6 to 8g for a single shot (30ml) and 12 to 16g for a double shot (60ml). Water temperature 92C (198F), tamping pressure 18Kg (40lbs), 25 to 30 sec. total extraction time which included 4 sec. pre-infusion). My notes did say that for a 58mm portafilter use 16-18g of coffee.

That last note makes me wonder...in other parts of the world (say Italy), what is common portafilter size? If different, like 54mm, this would certainly cause part of the difference between typical US and Italian dosing....right? :shock:
Bob "hello darkness my old friend..."

ceoloide

Postby ceoloide » Jun 01, 2018, 12:00 pm

BaristaBob wrote:That last note makes me wonder...in other parts of the world (say Italy), what is common portafilter size? If different, like 54mm, this would certainly cause part of the difference between typical US and Italian dosing....right? :shock:


I can confirm that professional Italian brewing equipment, like La Marzocco machines, mostly uses E61 group heads and 58mm baskets (like the precision filter F.3.028).

I'm pretty sure the final answer to the question of why do Italian espresso use ~7g instead of heavier doses (>9g), is due to the type of coffee roast, grind size, quantity in cup, and taste profile that are very specific to Italian preferences.

I would recommend to try a certified Italian coffee to decide if "Italians do it better", based on your own taste :D

In Italy we say:

Il mondo e' bello perche' e' vario


"The world is wonderful because it is varied"

Marco

mathof

Postby mathof » Jun 01, 2018, 1:16 pm

another_jim wrote:I also like the change of extraction timing, measuring from the first drop. Given the huge differences in preinfusion times, this is a good change.


It's also unavoidable when using scales like the Acaia Lunar that count time from the first drop.

BaristaBob

Postby BaristaBob » Jun 01, 2018, 2:06 pm

ceoloide wrote:In Italy we say:

"The world is wonderful because it is varied"

Marco


Marco...I could not agree with you more!!! 8)
Bob "hello darkness my old friend..."

paulraphael

Postby paulraphael » Jun 02, 2018, 12:01 am

ceoloide wrote:Remember: whatever I said above is anecdotal, Italy is a very diverse country with many local variations. What rings true to an Italian from Milan would sound alien to an Italian from Naples.


Based on this I'd like to throw in my experience from Rome a couple of years ago. Unfortunately I was staying near the tourist malls of the city's historic center, so I may have been far from where serious locals would go. But nevertheless all the espresso (and most of the gelato) I had was good. And I had both every day. I can't say the same thing about the food, but that's another story.

I noticed that the coffee was extremely consistent from one bar to another. Basically the same flavor profile everywhere (medium-dark roast, emphasis on chocolate and caramel sweetness, a lot of clarity, not a lot of body or complexity). It was all consistently good, and completely satisfying, although none of it was exciting.

I'd previously spent 10 days in Paris where all the espresso was bad—thin, one-dimensional, bitter, careless.

In my home city in NYC, the average espresso is much worse than the average espresso in Rome. But it's all over the place in terms of style and flavors. And the very best espressos I have here are much better than anything I had there—lighter roasts with dazzling, three-dimensional fruitiness and aroma, big sweet foundation, and body for days. But this isn't fair, because I've had much more opportunity to find the great places here. In Rome I was just dropping into random bars and hoping for the best.

happycat

Postby happycat » Jun 02, 2018, 8:55 am

ceoloide wrote:Hello All,

I'm new to the forum and this is my first post, couldn't resist chiming in on an Italian vs American coffee discussion!


I really enjoyed your post. Thanks!

The worst espresso I had was in Little Italy in Montreal during the Italian week festival. They scooped coffee powder out of a wooden drawer beneath the espresso machine. The guy in front of me picking up a shot in a paper cup poured sugar into it for days. Robusta city!
LMWDP #603