How to use Erics Thermometer on Profitec 500 PID

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks.
Bluenoser

Postby Bluenoser » Jul 03, 2018, 6:57 pm

I've just had my Profitec Pro 500 PID for about 3 weeks. And from all the literature it does not require cooling flushes (unless on for really long time). From my brief experience, that does seem to be true. I don't get flashing water, and shots taste pretty consistent. But I'm trying to determine if my brew water is really near 200F and am not sure how to do it.

Profitec's manual doesn't seem to be accurate for setting the PID and getting an ideal brew temp (as found by WLL and even in my crude temp measurements). I was hoping that I could simply set the PID to some setting, and since this beast doesn't really need cooling flushes, use a small foam cup with good quality thermometer stuck through the cup side to measure the initial brew water and I was thinking it should give me a measurement close to the 200F that I want. But I can set the PID up as high as 256F (Profitec says I should set to 248F) and the initial water temp in the foam cup is only about 188F when I pull about 2 oz. (the cup is only 1.5 inch high and held tightly against group head with no drain hole.. I flip lever to get about 2 oz in cup and look at max temp on probe.. probe is preheated to close to 180F so that not an issue) So maybe this is because the water exits too quickly; not under pressure (9Bar). Maybe under a 'real' extraction the water would be hotter. .. (but I thought I'd get much better results for the initial temp of the brew water)

If I get an EricS Therm, what technique might I use on a Pro 500 PID that should not require any cooling flush?

If I just pull the shot, how would I know if EricS reading is above or below the brewWater temp?

I'm pretty new at this.. and not exactly sure the dynamics of how the thermometer would work in a setting where one does not flush.

(sure wish I had access to a scace)

I guess I'm doing this just to verify to myself that the thermosiphon system is all working as it should be.

JayBeck

Postby JayBeck » replying to Bluenoser » Jul 03, 2018, 9:43 pm

I have the non PID version. You need resistance to get an accurate temp reading (that's what a sacace does).

Get the thermometer and what it will tell you is the idle group temp (when not running water) and them the temp of the water just above the puck. Generally it drops 3-5 degrees from the probe to the puck so if your idle temp is close to 200 and your water temp is 203-205 them you will be getting 200 degrees at the puck. Eric's thermometer will tell you a lot even with the PID (for example, when you cut machine on it tells you when group is ready to pull shots, aka 200 degrees or so)

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erics

Postby erics » Jul 03, 2018, 10:36 pm

If I get an EricS Therm, what technique might I use on a Pro 500 PID that should not require any cooling flush?

That depends a lot on what drinks you are making. For an EXAMPLE, if you are making straight espresso, you can set the boiler pressure to 1.00 bar max and you should be able to do a cursory screen flush (~ 1 second) and brew away.

If you are making 12 oz lattes, you might want a higher boiler pressure.

Lots of variables here and you need to be more specific as to how you plan to use the machine. Lots of info on my crude FTP site below my sig.
Skål,

Eric S.
http://users.rcn.com/erics/
E-mail: erics at erols dot com

Bluenoser

Postby Bluenoser » replying to erics » Jul 04, 2018, 3:41 pm

Hi Eric... thanks for the reply. I do make a lot of lattes. The recommended setup is to set the PID to a temp that allows the thermosiphon system to give a brew water of 200. Although Profitec recommends to set the PID to 248, that seems to too low and so a few others (WLL in particular) have found that setting the PID to 252 (which gives pressure of about 1.2Bar) gives a brew water of 200F through a 30 second pull. Steam is great at 1.2Bar.

So my planned work flow is simply to set PID to 252, warm up for 40 minutes and do 1 sec. flush and pull shot. WLL apparently simply let the machine warm up from 30 min to 1 hour and pulled 5 x 30 second pulls with 60 second wait and their SCACE all showed 200F within 1 degree throughout pulls. (Absolutely no flushes)

I'm just wondering if every machine is that predictable.. So let's say I simply warmed the machine up for 40 minutes.. didn't even do a flush, and pulled a 30 second shot. What would I expect your thermometer to read? If I could count on it giving me a brew water temp within 5 seconds (within a deg. Or two) then that would be super and I could determine the characteristics of my setup.

It doesn't seem like this is either the flush & go or flush & wait.

As an engineer, I'm wondering how predictable and repeatable the thermosiphon system is from one machine to the next.

I have been on your site and read some of the material.. I'll try to read more to see if I understand the thermodynamics of the process.

Dave

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GC7

Postby GC7 » Jul 10, 2018, 11:53 am

This oldie but goodie discussion might give you some ideas and help.

HX Heaven or 1½ Boiler\

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Radio.YYZ

Postby Radio.YYZ » Jul 16, 2018, 7:49 pm

Bluenoser wrote:I've just had my Profitec Pro 500 PID for about 3 weeks. And from all the literature it does not require cooling flushes (unless on for really long time). From my brief experience, that does seem to be true. I don't get flashing water, and shots taste pretty consistent. But I'm trying to determine if my brew water is really near 200F and am not sure how to do it.

Profitec's manual doesn't seem to be accurate for setting the PID and getting an ideal brew temp (as found by WLL and even in my crude temp measurements). I was hoping that I could simply set the PID to some setting, and since this beast doesn't really need cooling flushes, use a small foam cup with good quality thermometer stuck through the cup side to measure the initial brew water and I was thinking it should give me a measurement close to the 200F that I want. But I can set the PID up as high as 256F (Profitec says I should set to 248F) and the initial water temp in the foam cup is only about 188F when I pull about 2 oz. (the cup is only 1.5 inch high and held tightly against group head with no drain hole.. I flip lever to get about 2 oz in cup and look at max temp on probe.. probe is preheated to close to 180F so that not an issue) So maybe this is because the water exits too quickly; not under pressure (9Bar). Maybe under a 'real' extraction the water would be hotter. .. (but I thought I'd get much better results for the initial temp of the brew water)

If I get an EricS Therm, what technique might I use on a Pro 500 PID that should not require any cooling flush?

If I just pull the shot, how would I know if EricS reading is above or below the brewWater temp?

I'm pretty new at this.. and not exactly sure the dynamics of how the thermometer would work in a setting where one does not flush.

(sure wish I had access to a scace)

I guess I'm doing this just to verify to myself that the thermosiphon system is all working as it should be.


The PID machine is slightly different than the non PID. I found for me for my shot of espresso and a 5 minute recovery time meant i needed the boiler to be set to 1.2max (1.0-1.2 Max).

With the PID machine you maybe able to get away with being a bit less than 1.2 as there is no swing of pressure/temp combo.

As for eric's thermometer i seem to find best results by:
- heatup for 45-60mins.
- quick flush stop the garbling and then prep shot, approx 5 mins.
- flush the machine until i get 203F on erics and pull the shot within 30 seconds.
- usually starts at around 201.5-202F and ends around 196sih. (My assumption is the temp is 3F higher at puck)

I think the PID machine everything will change, but the flavour will tell you when and how much to flush and how much you wanna set your pid too.

Unfortunately this is something you will need to play with to get a decent cup out of the machine.

What is the quality of your espresso?


EDIT:

Read your reply to eric's post.

I think the thermometer just gives you a bit of insight on what the temperature would be, and it only measures accurately when water is passing through the chamber.

If you shot after shot is very consistent then i wouldn't worry about the temperature too much when idle, i would worry about temperature while you are pulling the shot (start to end) which will give you an idea of what is happening.
Good Coffee: Technique/Knowledge > Grinder > Beans > Water > Machine

kenyabob

Postby kenyabob » Aug 15, 2018, 2:12 pm

For the non PID version, if you want to experiment with different temperatures, do you change the boiler pressure? Do you cut your cooling flush short so that you start at a higher temperature when you pull the shot?

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Radio.YYZ

Postby Radio.YYZ » replying to kenyabob » Aug 15, 2018, 2:29 pm

I am just reducing flushing to a higher temp before pulling shot to adjust temperature in the cup. I have set my boiler to 1.2bar max.
Some coffees i flush to 206, and some to 203-204.
Good Coffee: Technique/Knowledge > Grinder > Beans > Water > Machine

sirajgb

Postby sirajgb » Aug 18, 2018, 11:54 pm

I also just got mine 500 PID version week ago. I played too much with the temp setting, sorry excited to upgrade after 5 year with a ZGaggia Classic, and still get inconsistent shots. I got a mind blowing shot, but haven't being able to replicate it since I changed the boiler temp and by the time I was done experimenting I had run out of beans!. Currently using a medium roast at 121 C but shot is bitter and burnt, don't know if grind coarser or reduce temp? I read that lower temps bring more of the acid/citrus flavors but the burn might be a sign of over-extracting, too fine grinds?

Any tips you want to share about your experiences with the machine?