How necessary is WDT? - Page 5

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks.
sheedapistawl

#41: Post by sheedapistawl »

I think it depends a lot on the Grinder - in my case my vario would have some clumping and I'd use a needle stuck in a cork to WDT, just became a habit.

After doing the alicorn super alignment procedure on the Vario, now I use WDT still but it's to distribute these "large" regions of more dense vs less dense grinds in the PF.

I think it marginally improves extractions - I also do a nutating tamp, I don't have a leveler and i think that also has an impact

pcrussell50

#42: Post by pcrussell50 »

sheedapistawl wrote:I think it depends a lot on the Grinder -
Agreed. Before I got my Monoliths, I had a Vario that was NOT aligned. Using the ceramic burrs, it just required a little light WDT to break up clumps, and then only if grinding super fine. Fast forward to my first Monolith, a Flat, with SSP burrs and I could not get a clean pour to save my life... Until I started what I call aggressive mixing (extreme WDT), by grinding not into the portafilter, but into a separate vessel, wider at the bottom than at the mouth, so I could really mix and tumble the he** out of it. That wasn't a case of distributing. That was a case of mixing. And that solved the problem. It turned the Monolith Flat SSP from a spritzy channely mess, into something fantastic. Now, I just do it all the time, every time, on all my grinders.

-Peter
LMWDP #553

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PIXIllate
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#43: Post by PIXIllate » replying to pcrussell50 »

I'm having issues getting spritz free bottomless pours from my (non-aligned, ceramic burr) Vario in a VST 18g basket with an 18g dose ground straight into the PF with an OE funnel. I'm using a paperclip to WDT and a leveler before a light (5lb) tamp.

Would you mind sharing the cup/vessel you are using to grind into. Perhaps this might help me. I'm struggling to figure out where I'm going wrong. The bottom fills in nicely and the streams come together quickly but I just can't seem to get through a pour without at least a spritz. Which makes cleanup time consuming.

pcrussell50

#44: Post by pcrussell50 »

PIXIllate wrote:I'm having issues getting spritz free bottomless pours from my (non-aligned, ceramic burr) Vario in a VST 18g basket with an 18g dose ground straight into the PF with an OE funnel. I'm using a paperclip to WDT and a leveler before a light (5lb) tamp.

Would you mind sharing the cup/vessel you are using to grind into. Perhaps this might help me. I'm struggling to figure out where I'm going wrong. The bottom fills in nicely and the streams come together quickly but I just can't seem to get through a pour without at least a spritz. Which makes cleanup time consuming.
Sure. Mine is particularly cool because of it's history, but you should be able to adapt almost anything to work for you. Here is the vessel in the forks of my old Monolith Flat:


It is a Weck jar from Germany. We got it at a church rummage sale, in Bad Tolz, Bavaria, Germany. But it turns out you can get them on Amazon, too.

The name of the game here is aggressive mixing. One of the reasons the Londinium tool is so popular, (besides gotta-have-it faddishness), is that it it is good for aggressive mixing and apparently also while still in the portafilter. But a Weck jar or one of the boutique yogurt jars with a wide bottom, AND a small cocktail whisk and you can mix as aggressively as you like.

-Peter
LMWDP #553

PIXIllate
Supporter ♡

#45: Post by PIXIllate »

pcrussell50 wrote:Sure. Mine is particularly cool because of it's history, but you should be able to adapt almost anything to work for you. Here is the vessel in the forks of my old Monolith Flat

The name of the game here is aggressive mixing. One of the reasons the Londinium tool is so popular, (besides gotta-have-it faddishness), is that it it is good for aggressive mixing and apparently also while still in the portafilter. But a Weck jar or one of the boutique yogurt jars with a wide bottom, AND a small cocktail whisk and you can mix as aggressively as you like.
Thanks for sharing.

Anytime you want to move that "old" Monolith along be sure to let me know.

I'm hoping that I can clear up my spritzing with more aggressive mixing/WDT because other than that I'm not sure what to do. I do have the Flow Control on my machine. Perhaps a more lever like 6-7 bar pressure would help rather than the 9 an E61 does typically.

fliz (original poster)

#46: Post by fliz (original poster) »

PIXIllate wrote: more aggressive mixing/WDT
making a poor-man's londinium tool by clipping the wires of a keycap puller and twisting them might be worth a try vs using a paperclip. A two pack of keycap pullers is $5 on amazon. It made a difference for me.

PIXIllate
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#47: Post by PIXIllate » replying to fliz »


Already ordered a few weeks ago and on the way. Thanks for that idea by the way. Although the fancy metal ones are more like $25CAD. So did you cut it off at the length where the spread equaled the outside diameter of the basket or is yours narrower so you can move it around within the basket? Or put more simply what did you end up with for the diameter at the tips?

Im hoping my issue is something simple like this. I'd like to be able to use the bottomless without the mess. I've had a bunch of mostly clean pours with just enough of a spritz to make a mess.

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fliz (original poster)

#48: Post by fliz (original poster) »

Conveniently, since it was a two pack, I can show you a before and after. This is how much I bent them. Basically half the diameter of my (53mm) basket, so the center gets stirred while I'm stirring around the edges.

pcrussell50

#49: Post by pcrussell50 »

PIXIllate wrote:Thanks for sharing.
Happy to, mate.
PIXIllate wrote:Anytime you want to move that "old" Monolith along be sure to let me know.
Where were you when I had it for sale a month ago or so? :wink: It's gone, now.
PIXIllate wrote:I'm hoping that I can clear up my spritzing with more aggressive mixing/WDT because other than that I'm not sure what to do. I do have the Flow Control on my machine. Perhaps a more lever like 6-7 bar pressure would help rather than the 9 an E61 does typically.
Couple of things...

1) ditch the VST... with flow control, which gives you the ability to make long slow pre infusions to soften the puck, you don't need it any more. See it's like this... Back before flow control, if you wanted to grind fine to increase EY, you risked choking your machine. So VST baskets came out and have a lot of hole area, so they can flow MUCH faster than regular baskets. This made it so you could grind fine and not choke your machine. But this capability makes them finicky and spritz-prone. With flow control, you can still do a fine grind, but you can do a long slow pre infusion, even up to a whole minute... or as long as you like, to soften the puck so that it won't choke on a fine grind. My group of friends in the flow control world have retired our VST's for high quality conventional baskets like the store brand from Espresso Parts NorthWest (EPNW), or Breville (yes, super high quality). But the Breville ones which used to be a good deal have gotten more expensive and with shipping are not as good a value as the EPNW. IMHO.

2) yes, 6-7 bar ;thumbsup; Many of today's cutting edge (well developed) light roasts not only do well with 6-7bar, but in some cases the roaster specifies 6-7 bar in his recipe. And with your needle valve, you can do just that. So you're good to go there as well

Try it and report back. Curious to see how it goes.

-Peter
LMWDP #553

PIXIllate
Supporter ♡

#50: Post by PIXIllate »

pcrussell50 wrote:
1) ditch the VST... with flow control, My group of friends in the flow control world have retired our VST's for high quality conventional baskets like the store brand from Espresso Parts NorthWest (EPNW), or Breville (yes, super high quality). But the Breville ones which used to be a good deal have gotten more expensive and with shipping are not as good a value as the EPNW. IMHO.
Interesting. I had not considered this. I do have the stock Profitec double I could try I guess. Are you saying that you've never been able to get consistent spritz free bottomless pours with a VST basket?
pcrussell50 wrote: 2) yes, 6-7 bar ;thumbsup; Many of today's cutting edge (well developed) light roasts not only do well with 6-7bar, but in some cases the roaster specifies 6-7 bar in his recipe. And with your needle valve, you can do just that. So you're good to go there as well

Try it and report back. Curious to see how it goes.
I'm not much for light roasts but this is on my list of variables to try. Right now I'm lowering the temperature by 2 degrees each day on the beans I'm using right now. I was wondering where the bitter was coming from until the roaster said that they pulled it at 192C. That seems extreme to me but it does appear to be getting better each day. Once I'm done with that experiment I'm going to do straight pressure down to 7 bar in increments and THEN I'll start playing with activly using the flow control during the shots.

There's an amazing amount to learn for such a tiny little drink.