boren wrote:@PIXIllate - I would hazard a guess that you don't find espresso from pods and capsules to be exciting or even acceptable either. The same for sure is true to Hoffmann and most participants in this forum, including me. But that's not the point. If the non-hobbyists enjoy the coffee they're getting, that's good enough justification to ignore Hoffman recommendation and just stick to their choice.

Sure, but as was stated earlier this quote is from a book called the World Atlas Of Coffee. I'd say the advice stands for anyone holding that book. Copies of which are probably rarely found next to a Pod machine or in the hands of someone who has not already crossed the threshold of wanting to taste the difference between good and bad coffee.

Owning a book on a certain subject doesn't mean you plan to make it a hobby, only that you're interested enough in the subject to buy the book. And for sure buying such a book doesn't mean that one needs to invest thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of experimenting to get coffee that the most people would enjoy. Even participating on this forum doesn't necessarily mean that one is interested in making coffee a hobby.

boren wrote:Owning a book on a certain subject doesn't mean you plan to make it a hobby, only that you're interested enough in the subject to buy the book. And for sure buying such a book doesn't mean that one needs to invest thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of experimenting to get coffee that the most people would enjoy. Even participating on this forum doesn't necessarily mean that one would.

True, Hoffman's point was about Espresso. It's far easier and cheaper to get world class coffee in the form of a porover or immersion brew. The point he was making if you read the book (and I have) is that espresso is probably not the right coffee preparation method for most people due to difficulty and expense.

If that's his point then I most certainly disagree with it. The number of people who drink espresso, cappuccino and latte is far higher than those who drink pourover, and you can easily see this in cafes worldwide. I would guess the ratio is at least 1:10 if not more. Making decent cappuccino and latte at home (not latte art mind you) is not that difficult. Making espresso that's better than what millions are getting from pods and capsules (and therefore potentially enjoyable by the majority of espresso drinkers) is also not a big challenge. Satisfying the typical participant on this forum probably is, but it's not the goal of people who buy espresso gear.

There are many people that genuinely don't know what good coffee tastes like. I use to know people that worked in a successful coffee shop similar to a Starbucks; they would pull their shots with horrid channeling. The espresso was so sour and bitter, but throw some steamed milk and a few pumps of sweetener of your choice and a dollop of whipped cream on top and the average consumer is none the wiser. For that consumer, sure buy the Nepresso machine or other budget friendly option and save yourself the $5 hit at Starbucks every morning and enjoy the world of espresso.

Personally, I would agree with Hoffman's points on espresso, while I may not have the knowledge, palate, or quality of equipment of others on this forum, I do have a fairly nice espresso setup and have been in the hobby for well over 15 years, Yet, I've still given occasional consideration to buying a nice auto pour over machine with a nice grinder and selling the rest. Truly excellent espresso is a constant hunt.

Truly excellent espresso is a constant hunt.....That's where I'm at right now. I dove into home espresso specifically because I couldn't find a decent drinkable espresso within a 100 miles, except for one local Italian restaurant. I wasn't interested in it becoming a hobby, but I practically had to go down that road a while to reach satisfactory results.

I don't believe it has to be this way for everyone. Some folks are certainly more clever than I am and could pick up on things faster. Having someone coach you with some in person instruction would be far superior to the way I went at it, virtually on my own from the onset.

My daughter and her husband took a course at a local community college regarding coffee and it's various consumer offerings. Only my daughter actually drinks coffee, but my son in law is planning to obtain an automatic espresso machine to serve cappuccinos to his wife, and I hope to assist him be successful far sooner than I was.

Having someone coach you with some in person instruction would be far superior to the way I went at it, virtually on my own from the onset.

Couldn't agree more with this, while I've had many people help me with various hobbies and interests coffee has not been one of them. It can be a real challenge trying to troubleshoot a bad shot when you have so many variables to consider.

Although I agree with Hoffman that starting out can be a tedious exercise, once you have reached a certain level of competence at making espresso it is really not that difficult or time consuming to enjoy that Sunday morning espresso. It takes me 2 minutes and 45 seconds from the moment I arrive at my coffee bar until I sit with an espresso in my hand.

There is no reason why you need to be a hobbyist who is actively pursuing grand master/expert level in order to have drinkable espresso at home. The caveat is that you need to reach competence and the time to reach this can vary depending on the individual.

For me espresso is the Pareto/80-20 principle in practice. You need to eliminate the noise and amplify the signal. Stop faffing over all the latest espresso gadgets (a common "newbie" trap) and focus on the aspects that move the needle. Reduce the variables and identify those that make the biggest difference. This way you will quickly identify the few areas that hold the biggest potential for improvement. If you do this, the learning curve will still be steep but it can become short.

Once you reach competence, your espresso making ability will be like a tool in a toolbox. When you need it, you use it, and after use, you put it back. There is no need to be thinking about and actively pursue it all day unless you are after that elusive (and goal post moving) grand master/expert level mentioned above.

Stephanus wrote:There is no reason why you need to be a hobbyist who is actively pursuing grand master/expert level in order to have drinkable espresso at home. The caveat is that you need to reach competence and the time to reach this can vary depending on the individual.

For me espresso is the Pareto/80-20 principle in practice. You need to eliminate the noise and amplify the signal. Stop faffing over all the latest espresso gadgets (a common "newbie" trap) and focus on the aspects that move the needle. Reduce the variables and identify those that make the biggest difference. This way you will quickly identify the few areas that hold the biggest potential for improvement. If you do this, the learning curve will still be steep but it can become short.

Can I get an "Amen?"