aecletec wrote:There seems to be a lot of "coulds" about vacuums and related problems

I agree, and while theorizing about this stuff is fun, you never know until you experiment. If you can stand 12 minutes of Gail & Kat there is one informal taste test comparison involving the Bean Vac vs the Airscape storage cans. After 2 weeks in a vacuum they didn't seem to see a loss of crema. They also didn't conclude that one was much better than the other. But it was a very crude unscientific test, and did not involve long term frozen storage.

(The Bean Vac uses a little battery pump to create a vacuum. The Airseal Airscape would have a slight vacuum but mostly just eliminates airspace by pressing the sealed lid down to the level of the beans.)

cpreston wrote:I assume this is true, but I'm wondering what your experience is with the vacuum device... are you confident that it actually gives better real world results than just filling the jars all the way?

Experience: I bought our first Foodsaver in 2004 to vacuum bag the garden produce & meats that we store in a dedicated storage freezer. Vacuum bagging will double the freezer life of meats & vegetables as compared to standard wrapping/bagging methods. When I got seriously into coffee in 2007 it seemed a no brainer to try vac bagging & freezing my excess roasted coffee. In 2009 when I got into roasting I bought way too many greens so we upgraded the food freezer & I took over the smaller storage freezer for my coffee. 4 years later I still have some of those 2009 greens vac bagged in the freezer. When I open the bag they still smell like fresh greens & once roasted they taste even better then they did originally as my roasting skills have improved noticeably in the last 4 years. Early last year I picked up some half gallon canning jars & started storing greens in those in the freezer after vacuum sealing. It's too soon to say how that method will compare to the vacuum bags long term but so far it's working out well.

Back to roasted coffee: These threads have been popping up once or twice a year as long as I've been on this forum. Once vacuum sealing is mentioned you either hear that home vacuum sealers aren't effective(too weak) or that the sealer will suck all the CO2 out of the beans (too strong). This information always comes from someone who doesn't own one & most likely has never even used one. In close to 6 years of vacuum sealing roasted coffee I haven't found either "theory" to be accurate.

I've tried all the alternative freezer storage methods that get mentioned in these threads at one time or another to see how they compared to vacuum sealing. All of them allowed the beans to age much faster then when I vacuum seal. The combination of vacuum sealing & freezing @ -5*F to -10*F in a storage freezer comes as close to stopping the aging process as you are going to get in a home environment. The longest vacuum sealed frozen roasted coffee success story I've got was a bag of Redbird that got lost amongst my greens in the freezer for 7 months. Since the bag was still sealed tight & holding a vacuum when I found it I left it on the counter to warm up. A few hours later the bag was partially inflated which seemed to indicate that the beans that I had frozen 6 days post roast 7 months ago were degassing. Over the next 3 days that 7 month old bag of Redbird produced perfectly normal shots with nice crema that tasted like Redbird & required no unusual grind adjustment. I can't say that it didn't lose something during those 7 months in the freezer as I didn't have a fresh batch to compare it to but the shots were tasty.

Thanks for the very thorough reply. The one thing I'm still wondering about is, how similar or different might the results have been if one had done the same procedure with the jars and freezer, just without the vacuum step?

I did say I tried ALL of the alternative methods & that did include just filling canning jars with no vacuum sealing. I do put up some of my roasted coffee in pint & qt. canning jars after vacuum sealing them although I believe that the bags give the best long term results. With the jars of non vac sealed beans I found that once removed from the freezer the beans faded much sooner then those in vac sealed jars showing that they had continued aging in the freezer.

JohnB:
"I do put up some of my roasted coffee in pint & qt. canning jars after vacuum sealing them although I believe that the bags give the best long term results."

Have been considering Foodsaver for yesrs. After reading John's 11AM post got on the phone with Foodsaver for 45 minutes. Before ordering wanted to know which would be best for coffee beans. In her opinion it would be the vacuum seal bags rather than containers. She pointed out they were much more space saving and confirmed what John said above.
She threw in 3 of the pint bag cartons(28 per carton) after the order. Said I could get the qt size anywhere.

And the Gamesaver Model has a lifetime warranty when ordered from the factory.
Before ordering doublechecked with Amazon and Foodsaver.com beat Amazons price. That shocked me.
Told her had this friend on HB named JohnB that extolled the virtues of Foodsaver and that she should give John a break next time he called. She laughed and said she appreciated him.

As a bit of clarification here is my procedure. (SOP).

I buy my roasted beans, and get them 48-72 hours after roasting. (2-3 days later).

I keep 2-3 weeks worth of beans outside, and the rest go to the freezer.

I used to transfer all the beans into mason jars for the freezer, but no more. Now I put a tape over the bag's valve to close the bag hermetically, and store the full bags in the freezer. The reason is, I don't even want to open the bags to introduce air (and oxygen) into them, I rather leave the CO2 of the degasing inside, as these gases pushed the regular air out. So by not opening the original bag, I keep the inert gases inside.

Now when I am running out of the beans that are out on my counter, I open a bag and portion into 8 & 16 oz mason jars. I freeze the empty jars first, to chill them down, to reduce whatever condensation may occur by pouring sub zero freezing cold beans into a 83F room temperature jars. So I freeze the empty jars for and hour or so and then transfer the new bag's content into them very quickly, and put them back into the freezer.

I keep the 1 jar I am planning to use daily out on the counter. (well, actually, I put it in the fridge, to bring it from sub zero to ~38-40F overnight or a day, and then out to the counter. This is similar to what I used to do as a photographer back in the days of Kodachrome...

Now, the jar is out. 8oz = 90-95 grams. 16oz about 200g. Some days I drink 1 shot, some days 3-4.

So you see, sometimes the 90g jar is too small, and sometimes the 200g jar is too large.

These things get more complicated when I have 2 or 3 different SO. One espresso blend, one Kenya, one Honduras, one Ethiopia, etc. I want one for the cappuccino and latte, another for a strait espresso, etc. and the next time I just change it around, whatever I feel I'd like to taste. So, it's not possible to "plan" just like you can't tell me what you'd feel hungry for tomorrow, you know.

Keeping 3 jars outside, after freezing and thawing, and I'd ran into "issues". I'd think I'll want to drink "X" more than "Z", and put them in 8 or 16oz jars, take them out, and 2 weeks later, the 16oz jar is still half full and out because I was just not drawn to it as much as I was to the others...

So you see, the whole thing about vacuuming the mason jars is not for the freezing, but for the after freezing phase. That is when most of the degradation happens, and that is when I want to slow things down, but in a meaningful outcome.

...

JohnB

If you send me your address I'll send you a 1/2 pound of Robusta and a pound of Monsooned Malabar in appreciation of your advice.
gecounts at gmail dot com

Tried to PM you via HB but can't locate your address under "J"

genecounts wrote:And the Gamesaver Model has a lifetime warranty when ordered from the factory.

Before ordering doublechecked with Amazon and Foodsaver.com beat Amazons price. That shocked me.

Not surprising at all. Amazon wants their share, and the seller wants to make his piece too.

I had the same experience with VitaMix. Amazon, Bed Bath & Beyond, pretty much at MSRP prices. $449 - $499 depending on the model.

I got mine directly from VitaMix, "refurbished" that means brand new that some high end chain returned since they didn't sell well there. (forget the name, but famous). She threw in every item she could think of, waived the shipping cost. I got the Professional Culinary Institute of America model for $300 and change. The impression I got is that they are just too happy to hear someone who has a total crash on their product and just too happy to throw gifts on him if you make their day making them smile for a while. AND, they have the room to take the price down.

Hope you got the mason jar attachment?

EDIT:

JohnB
... Tried to PM you via HB but can't locate your address under "J"

See that little [PM] icon below each of our screen name and description?

JohnB. wrote: With the jars of non vac sealed beans I found that once removed from the freezer the beans faded much sooner then those in vac sealed jars showing that they had continued aging in the freezer.

Ah, I see. Thanks.

LaDan:
"Hope you got the mason jar attachment?"

After John's advice and FoodSaver saying flexible bags are better didn't want any jar attachment.
Actually they said I might like the tear off plastic sheets better than precut one pint bags since there would never be any space left over after vacuuming. Added bonus of having enough material for hundreds of roasts included in the package deal since it is 11 X 16 rolls. 11? Have to call them to figure why the odd size.

And I did hit PM next to John's name but address wouldn't attach, then tried HB's search to no avail. Maybe out of order temporarily.
Thanks