First attempt at a systematic approach to teaching myself how to make better espresso, looking for feedback - Page 3

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
vickeryj (original poster)
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#21: Post by vickeryj (original poster) »

I pulled a bunch of shots this morning. Two that I pulled make me think I might be developing my palate.

#1 16.5g/33.5g 28s
#2 16.4g/33.9g 30s

#1 was good, every so slightly acidic but pretty well balanced by bitter flavors and nice roasty flavors. I was able to notice complex flavors but not name them.

#2 was great, acid was ever so slightly present, but it was well balanced by bitter. The shot felt thick and tasted complex.

If I understand correctly, I kept dose (almost) constant and decreased my grind size, thereby decreasing acid.

I'm still working on pulling shots by changing dose and grind size and keeping ratio and time constant, but I'm struggling with it and not getting much consistency. The above shots were essentially accidents in that process. But I'm getting closer, so I'll keep going.

Sprobuzz
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#22: Post by Sprobuzz »

Hearing this makes me feel so much better about my ugly single-origin shots, thanks!

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Peppersass
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#23: Post by Peppersass »

Keep shooting for consistency. It's the Holy Grail of espresso. Without it, you can't dial in properly or with any repeatability.

Not to be critical, but I have to point out that the difference between the two shots, just 0.4g of beverage and 2 seconds of shot time, is unlikely to produce any detectable difference in taste. At least, I can't tell any meaningful difference between shots that close. With the small decrease in dose and small increase in shot time, I would think the change in grind was very small and not enough to significantly affect extraction.

Another way to think of it is that if you hadn't pulled the second shot longer it probably would have weighed about the same as the first shot. Then the only difference would be 0.1g of dose, which is well below the minimum detectable difference that I've seen in HB post, about 0.5g.

It's possible your grinder isn't consistent enough to make what look like significant grind changes meaningful. Again, make sure the weight of the beans in the hopper is about the same from shot to shot (after each shot, add the same weight in beans that you ground for the previous shot.)

Another possibility is that you may be "reading into" what you're tasting in the cup. We've all done that from time to time.

vickeryj (original poster)
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#24: Post by vickeryj (original poster) »

Reading into it seems most likely. I really *want* to be tasting a difference. Oh well.

So if these were close enough, does that mean they are consistent? I'm not positive the grinder was actually on different positions. I was trying to put it back in the same place, but the knob is very twitchy. But maybe that's a win, in that I can pull shots with different settings and get close enough back to the original.

mdmvrockford
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#25: Post by mdmvrockford »

Peppersass wrote:Keep shooting for consistency. It's the Holy Grail of espresso. Without it, you can't dial in properly or with any repeatability.

Not to be critical, but I have to point out that the difference between the two shots, just 0.4g of beverage and 2 seconds of shot time, is unlikely to produce any detectable difference in taste. At least, I can't tell any meaningful difference between shots that close.......
To "Peppersass": in your experience what is the time difference between two shots when you start noticing difference between the two espressos?


BACKGROUND:
I think this will help novices like me and the original poster. FWIW, in my experience, if two shots vary by more than 4 seconds then I start to notice differences between the two espressos. This assumes all else the same (e.g. same ground bean dose and same brew ratio, same puck preparation, same preinfusion time, etc). For such trials (not blinded) I stop the first shot at blonding point and note brew ratio. Then exact same preparation (to best of my ability on the Cremina since I don't have Smart Espresso Profiler and just the analog pressure gauge) and 2nd shot stopped at same brew ratio and note time which is usually within 3 seconds of 1st shot. I notice this <4 seconds between two shots consistency especially with use of my single boiler dual use with PID pump machine paired with aligned Titan grinder.

To be clear for others who may be new to this thread, I do not stop espresso brew based on time. 1st choice is blonding point and 2nd choice is brew ratio.
LMWDP #568

vickeryj (original poster)
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#26: Post by vickeryj (original poster) »

Another morning another set of shots. This time I needed to dial in a new bag of beans. I'm starting to be able to put some words to flavors, and I felt much like I was twiddling in the dark with this bag.

My biggest problem right now is adjusting my grinder. I'm not sure why people want stepless grinders. I would much rather be able to put the burrs back where they were or move them a specific amount. In order to give myself a reference point I've divided each number on the wheel into 8. Half is marked, half between that is a 1/4 and then half again. The last bit gets squishy, but I'm seeing 4+ second differences with 1/4 moves, so 1/8th it is.

I feel like I may have bought the wrong grinder and should have perhaps gone for a sette 270.

2 shots

#1 16.5g / 33g 31s at "2 1/4"
#2 16.5g / 32.9g 34s at "2 3/8"

#1 I thought was too bitter, so I tried making the the second one coarser. It should have been faster to pull, but it was slower. I played around with the machine, pulling shots with the empty portafilter and noticed there is a lot of variation in how long it takes to come to full pressure, and even once it does, the flow is not constant. Since I'm pulling by weight, I think this is what's happening to my shot times. I'll start weighing and timing some empty pf shots to see if this theory holds up.

My tasting note, and it may all be in my head, was that #2 had some acid that balanced out the bitter. The shot was overall perhaps too aggressive and I'm going to try lowering the dose and grinding finer next round.
L

vickeryj (original poster)
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#27: Post by vickeryj (original poster) »

Ok, I attempted to see if there is much variability in shot rate. I used the single pressurized basket empty and timed a bunch of shots. I timed from the time the pump kicked on to when the pressure relief opened. I didn't get all the shots to exactly 30g, so I normalized the times to that value. The range I got was 9.6-10.9.

Does anyone know if that level of variation is typical, recognizing that I was timing by hand?

The actual numbers if people are curious
W.      T.      R.      N.
28	10.2	2.75	10.93
29.7	10.6	2.80	10.71
28	9.8	2.86	10.50
29.1	10.0	2.91	10.31
29.4	9.9	2.97	10.10
28.7	9.2	3.12	9.62
Weight, Time, Rate, Normalized to 30g

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Peppersass
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#28: Post by Peppersass »

Using the pressurized basket to measure time it takes for pressure to build is a good idea, but I hope you're not using the pressurized basket for your shots. That wouldn't work out well.

I hate to be the one to say this, and bear in mind I don't have experience with your equipment, but the variation you're seeing isn't unusual for low-end espresso equipment. I suspect there are inconsistencies in the pressure profile, flow rate and temperature stability of the machine, which will very likely affect shot times and taste, and the grinder may be inconsistent as well. I don't have experience with the Sette 270, either, but I've seen a number of reports here about inconsistency of that grinder.

To a large extent, with espresso equipment you get what you pay for. If you're capable of discerning subtle variations in taste, and want to produce the very best espresso possible, you'll have to upgrade your equipment. And it won't be cheap.

When I first got into espresso, I chose a Rancilio Silvia espresso machine and a Macap M4 grinder. I can't recall exactly what they cost, but together it was over $1,000 -- quite a bit more than your total, and that was 12 years ago! The sad thing is that experienced home baristas here warned me about Silvia, but I ignored them. I thought I'd learn how to pull espresso on a cheap machine, then if I was really committed to daily espresso I'd upgrade.

That plan soon went out the window. Silvia was a nightmare of inconsistency, as was the M4 (though at the time I didn't know about inconsistency from varying amounts of beans in the hopper.) Within 30 days I had sold Silvia and the M4 and bought a La Marzocco GS/3 and a Baratza Vario. The Vario was soon replaced by a "Titan" grinder, a Compak K10. The total cost was well over $5,000, and that was with a deeply discounted GS/3. That's when I really started learning how to pull espresso and started getting good shots on a consistent basis. I'm still learning 12 years later and still have the GS/3, though it's heavily modified for pressure and flow profiling.

The truth is that learning to pull espresso on cheap, inconsistent equipment is extremely difficult, if not impossible. When the grinder and machine do something different on every shot, there's no way to properly dial in a coffee. You just keep chasing your tail. I'm not saying you have to spend $5,000 or more to pull a decent espresso, but you'll have to get into four figures for sure.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

vickeryj (original poster)
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#29: Post by vickeryj (original poster) »

I'm not opposed to upgrading, I just want to make sure I'm capable of using the equipment I buy. The grinder upgrade alone changed everything. I didn't realize the Mignon line was that bad, people seem to speak highly of them. I suppose I'll upgrade the machine to something more consistent then upgrade the grinder once I reach the limits of that.

So those times are typical of my equipment, but not consistent enough to really be able to get to great shots, right?

And no, I'm not using the pressure basket to pull actual shots, just to give the machine something to push against.

I was thinking about buying a Decent Espresso machine because I figure the wealth of sensors and output data would help me get better faster. Do you think that would be a good purchase? I probably wouldn't buy it for a while due to price.

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Peppersass
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#30: Post by Peppersass »

I don't know if the Mignon is a bad grinder or not. The big question is whether it's consistent. As I said a couple of times, with a hopper grinder it's important to keep a constant amount of beans in the hopper from shot to shot because variations in weight of the bean column will change the grind, which in turn will give you inconsistent results. It's easy enough to compensate by adding more beans after each shot. I would start with that and see if your shots get more consistent.

Or, your grinder might work well as a single dose grinder, which eliminates the hopper problem. In order to single dose well, a grinder must have very low retention. If the weight of the beans going in is within 0.1g or .2g of the weight of the grounds coming out, your grinder doesn't retain much and is suitable for single dosing. More than that, or an inconsistent large variation between weight in and weight out, and your grinder won't work well for single dosing.

Eliminate the hopper or switch to single-dosing and the grinder may be consistent enough to use while you learn. With 55mm burrs it probably won't match the grind quality of a Titan grinder, but as long as it's consistent you can develop your skills with it.

The machine may be a different story. You're already suspicious that the pressure ramp isn't consistent. I saw one review on the Breville site saying that the owner had pulled over 100 shots and couldn't get any consistency. It would be good to measure the pressure and temperature stability, but that won't be easy (e.g., a Scace II Thermofilter won't fit the 54mm group.) You'd have to cobble together homebrew pressure and temperature measuring devices, which is tricky but doable.

And the trouble is, if either the grinder or the machine is inconsistent, it'll be difficult to tell which one is the culprit.

From what I hear, the Decent is a very good machine. But it's got a lot of features designed for advanced baristas, and I don't know how easy it would be to use for someone early in their espresso journey. You might consider the Breville dual boiler, which seems to get very good reviews and is quite a bit less expensive. Perhaps BDB owners will comment. While there are some excellent HX machines out there, they require learning how to temperature surf, so I think dual boiler machines are easier to learn on.