pcrussell50 wrote:Unlike the Vario/Forte twins, there are parts of the Sette that are not meant to be user serviceable. If you broke into that regime that may explain some things about why you're having trouble getting it back together. The Vario/Forte you can take down to nuts and bolts and put back together again with Monolith-grade (single digit micron) alignment.

The Alicorn: Achieving Precision Alignment with the Baratza Forté/Vario

And:

Baratza Vario Super Alignment owner experience

If you go with a flat??? Alignment alignment alignment. If you become swooned by one of the Mazzer derivatives, do your homework on how aligned they are and/or how big a job it is to align them.

-Peter

Yes no doubt alignment helps, but most grinders are likely quite suitable as-is for many users. Granted a 'hyper alignment' may improve things that last 1-2%, but I strongly doubt most will ever see the true benefit. Regarding the Vario/Forte, I don't see the point of crazy alignment when weak motors, cheap circuitry and barely decent burrs are still the weak links. You can polish a turd, but it's still gonna be a turd.

If I grind lighter roasted ( so more sour) beans with my K30 I will get espresso that leans to sour.
If I grind that with Kony burrs it still is sourish.
My Mazzer Major grind results in the same sourish espresso.

More darker beans give the opposite effect.

Why look for hardly noticeable differences that the grinder choice may result in instead of looking for the main factor that causes sour extractions.Namely type of beans and the way they are roasted.

If I want to break the speed record in a production car I could tinker with the engine of a Toyota Celica( as in the grinder). But I'd better get the right car.For instance a Bugatti Veyron.( as in the right type of beans)

espressotime wrote:If I grind lighter( so more sour) beans with my K30 isI will get espresso that leans to sour.
If I grind that with a Kony burrs it still is more sour.
My Mazzer Major grind results in the same sourish espresso.

More darker beans give the opposite effect.

Why look for hardly noticeable differencens that the grinder choice may result in instead of looking for the main factor that causes sour extractions.Namely type of beans and the way they are roasted.

If I want to break the speed record in a production car I could tinker with the engine of a Toyota Celica. But I'd better get a Bugatti Veyron.

EXACTLY as the light roast bandwagon won't be tolerable for many, myself definitely included. If I wanted something more acidic, lighter, thinner with the pronounced weaker notes I'd stick with tea.

Thanks, guys. I'm not using light roast, but medium. And I've tried these blends at my local shop and they don't taste sour at all.

Every single freakin' shot I pull is sour. So frustrated after years and thousands of dollars!

Spoke with some local roasters who said I can bring in the machine and they would help me. That's my last resort.

I was answering the OP. Hopefully he read the links I provided. You clearly did not. If you dispute the facts presented, you should enter those threads and post what you know that is counter to the people who are, you know, actually doing it.

John_Doe wrote:Yes no doubt alignment helps,

Yes. Just a little.

John_Doe wrote:but most grinders are likely quite suitable as-is for many users.

Until they discover otherwise and decide to belly up and align theirs (if they can be), or pay up for one that for sure is aligned.

John_Doe wrote:Granted a 'hyper alignment' may improve things that last 1-2%, but I strongly doubt most will ever see the true benefit.

This is probably true to a certain extent. People still spend all kinds of money on machines that don't have full control of pre infusion. But for some, espresso is a journey and as they progress, they discover their interest in the kinds of coffees that require hyper-alignment and super capable machines.

John_Doe wrote:Regarding the Vario/Forte, I don't see the point of crazy alignment when weak motors, cheap circuitry and barely decent burrs are still the weak links. You can polish a turd...

LOL. The Vario in the Vario thread was ten years old, in continuous service, with hard, light roasted beans, without a single failure.

1) "weak motors"
The Vario and Forte use the same motor. The Forte was designed for and is used in commercial shops

2) "cheap circuitry?"
See above. Still, What? One or two in the archives of HB, maybe three, in eleven years. Is this how folklore and "tall tales" originate? And even still, it's an easy cheap DIY fix. At least with the Sette, you have dozens of separate discrete events. Not one or two, being spread and re tweeted into something that doesn't exist, as is the case with Vario/Forte electronics.

3) "barely decent burrs"
LOL. You are aware are you not, that Baratza doesn't make it's own flat burrs? They come from the same highly regarded establishment burr makers, both Mahlkoenig and Ditting, who make burrs for other high end grinders. Once a grinder is aligned, it's taste performance is all down the burr design. The guy doing all the legwork has an aligned commercial grinder with SSP burrs, (generally regarded as the best espresso burrs you can buy). I don't imagine you read his taste comparison notes, of the Mahlkoenigs and Dittings vs. his SSP? Sorry, that was a facetious dig. You could not possibly have read before you spoke. Or you could not have said such a thing in the first place. Pro tip: Go back and give it a read, then if you still think they are "barely decent burrs", bring what you've got to back up your claims. We'll get it sorted out together.

-Peter

Pre-infusion is merely a crutch/training wheel and far from necessary for great espresso. Might help channeling for some, but that's just an indication to work on puck prep. 'Might' be acceptable to bring out something consumable with the light roast/underdeveloped battery acid 'coffees' that some seek out, but I'll never waste my time/effort with that venture. More power to those that choose to do so.

Yes Peter, I've read of your prolonged use of the Vario, but your scenario is without question the exception to the rule. I had a Vario, had all sorts of manufacturing defects with it regardless of fix after fix until I gave the turd away. Yes the motors and circuitry are a weak joke and barely get the job done for what's thrown at it. Regarding the burrs, I for one am not really impressed with Mahlkonig so they can definitely keep the crappy ceramic burrs and have at it. Furthermore, you are indeed correct that I haven't read some of the things you mentioned simply as it doesn't apply to what I choose to work with. What works for others doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things due to varying equipment, coffee, environment, experience, expectations... you get my point. Do continue to make the very best of your setup as that's what counts.

John_Doe wrote:Pre-infusion is merely a crutch/training wheel and far from necessary for great espresso. Might help channeling for some, but that's just an indication to work on puck prep. 'Might' be acceptable to bring out something consumable with the light roast/underdeveloped battery acid 'coffees' that some seek out, but I'll never waste my time/effort with that venture. More power to those on the cutting edge of espresso that choose to do so.

Fixed that for you. The more keys you hold the more doors you open. Stay nice and safe in your room.

John_Doe wrote:Yes Peter, I've read of your prolonged use of the Vario, but your scenario is without question the exception to the rule. I had a Vario, had all sorts of manufacturing defects with it regardless of fix after fix until I gave the turd away. Yes the motors and circuitry are a weak joke and barely get the job done for what's thrown at it.

And? Because it happened to you, or a minuscule handful of others, it's the norm? Do you think the commercial shops that use Fortes continually have the same the same experience you claim? :head scratch/

John_Doe wrote: Do continue to make the very best of your setup as that's what counts.

I have a Monolith Flat, mate. And yes, I'm doing my best to make the best of my setup. Same as everybody else here.

-Peter

Ok, boys. No need to hijack my thread and argue with each other...

Hmmm - I may sound Ike an idiot, but perhaps I am confusing brightness of my light / med roasts with sour. I'm gonna to hit some more local roasters and compare their shots to the bag I buy to pull home and try.

Cutting edge of espresso? More along the lines of coffee flavored tea. Yet another awesome reason to home roast as I will never be stuck with what's being ruined/sold these days commercially.

mariog7 wrote:Ok, boys. No need to hijack my thread and argue with each other...

Hmmm - I may sound Ike an idiot, but perhaps I am confusing brightness of my light / med roasts with sour. I'm gonna to hit some more local roasters and compare their shots to the bag I buy to pull home and try.

Not trying to hijack, but just pointing out the grinder isn't always the weak link. It's often terribly roasted coffee and some people just will never get used to it and they shouldn't have to.