Espresso only bearable with sweetener. Need help dialing in. - Page 3

June 2nd, 2022, 11:05 am

Hi Jeff thanks for the tips. I'll use them.

#22: Post by **espressotime** » June 2nd, 2022, 11:22 am

I've been into coffee for over 55 years and into espresso for over 30.
And I must say I've never cared much for the taste of espresso as it is.
I always add a touch of steamed milk. Cortado/ caffee macchiato.
And it makes that coffee heavenly.Trie it.No sugar needed .Sugar is needed when I drink espresso straight.

#23: Post by **gobucks** » June 2nd, 2022, 11:27 am

JEHolloway wrote:Thanks Wildtype, I received Verge however I was not dosing at 20 in and 30 out. I noticed Clive Coffee is now teaching the use of triple basket with 20in 30 out. I'll try it this way.

20 in 30 out seems like an awfully high dose and tight ratio for a first standard recipe. That ratio is ristretto territory which can stand up well in a larger milk drink, but is going to be very thick and maybe a bit underdeveloped as straight espresso. As for the dose, using a triple shot as your standard recipe means 1) more wasted coffee as you're trying to dial it in and 2) you either need to have fewer coffees or you'll be more wired from caffeine. I started out at 18g cuz that's what most recipes called for, but since then my dose has steadily drifted down and is currently at 14g in, 28-30g out, which is about the limit for my puck prep skills. I notice that most roasters suggest high dosages of 18-21g for their coffees, but I get the feeling that that's more about third wave coffeehouse convention than anything else. For dialing in your first recipe, I'd probably be using the medium (14-18g) basket, choose the smallest dose that you can reliably pull without channeling, and start with a normale 2:1 ratio, from which you can add or subtract a few grams of output as desired (maybe go a few grams short for milk drinks, a few grams long on a lighter roast, etc)

#24: Post by **imp96** » June 2nd, 2022, 1:08 pm

Whole Foods (at least in the bay area) periodically carries local coffees that are fresh (3-7 days post roast). I have frequently bought Cat n Cloud, Verve, Barefoot and Counter Culture coffees. On top of that they also regularly have sales on these coffees which end up being a lot cheaper than buying from the roaster. The trick is to not look for a specific coffee but just any coffee with a recent roast date, you can usually find something fresh. You also need to check the coffee bags in the back of the shelf since that's where they put the new stock.

#25: Post by **Smo** » June 2nd, 2022, 2:25 pm

espressotime wrote: I always add a touch of steamed milk. Cortado/ caffee macchiato.
And it makes that coffee heavenly.

So really delicious.
This is delicious too:

My passion for coffee started in this cafe.
They brought me an espresso, I drank it and went to see where they got it from.

#26: Post by **iploya** » June 2nd, 2022, 11:23 pm

JEHolloway wrote:Any ideas would be helpful.

Buy a 5-lb bag of coffee so you have lots of the same coffee to practice with. Klatch and Black Oak are a few roasters I find to be consistent quality and good value, especially with online coupon.

I would also look at puck prep to make sure you are getting a uniform extraction. Stirring the grounds with a needle (fancy term is WDT), followed by a leveler tool (Amazon special is fine), then tamp.

None of the above tips are novel but they are simple things you can do that might improve the issues you describe.

June 3rd, 2022, 6:37 pm

Thanks Espressotime,

I received Italian beans from Napoli Italy today roasted two days ago. Ordered from Cantina coffee called Crema bar. I followed Clive Coffee recommendations of using a triple basket 20 g in 30 g out 30 seconds. I got a good result with a little bit of bitterness added a little bit of sweetener and a little bit of steamed milk I think that's a Cortado and it was very good. Clive Coffee said they are now teaching to use triple baskets 20 g dose because it is more forgiving and easier to dial-in. It worked for me however I'm willing to try a double basket with 14 to 15 g in and 28 to 32 g out in 23 to 30 seconds.

June 3rd, 2022, 6:43 pm

Jeff wrote:Until you develop an intuition like a good chef, take lots of notes, and don't change a lot at one time.

"18 g in, 36 g out, in 25 seconds" is a benchmark, not a rule. It's a good place to start for classic espresso. After a while, you can get close to that with your second shot. Tasting it, your experience can tell you how to adjust to get a very good shot on your third (which may be a different ratio, time, or both).

Though it's easy to say "oh, 0.1 g on dose doesn't matter", I find that sometimes it does. 0.2-0.5 g definitely do, if the rest of your prep and gear are consistent enough to tell.

For me, I liked writing things down rather than using a computer/phone. It helps me remember that "last time it tasted bitter like this for this class of coffee, I reduced the ratio to 1:1.7 and it tasted a lot better."

My basic notes were:
* Country of coffee (or blend) and roaster, along with my words on general roast level
* Dose in, weight out (0.1 g on dose, might as well for beverage too)
* Time -- pick a way to measure, be consistent
* Quick description, "yuck, bitter" is perhaps enough. Knowing that it has "floral notes of pink hibiscus buds" sells coffee, but isn't a lot more helpful in learning to dial in than "something subtle, flowers?"

I also circle/box what I changed from the previous shot, to make it obvious to me when reviewing (and help me internalize).

Thanks Jeff. I keep a written table on a clipboard of vertical columns with every item of data you suggested for each pull along with taste. My family thinks I have lost my mind.

June 3rd, 2022, 6:49 pm

JEHolloway wrote:Thanks Wildtype, I received Verge however I was not dosing at 20 in and 30 out. I noticed Clive Coffee is now teaching the use of triple basket with 20in 30 out. I'll try it this way.

I did 20 g in and 30 g out in 30 seconds on my Panther coffee and it was just too floral earthy grassy bright for my liking. Is all Brazilian coffee like this? I bought some Brazilian coffee from a local roaster in Fort Lauderdale and a local roaster and Miami both were Brazilian beans and both were floral fruity bright and earthy. I think I brewed it correctly however it's just not to my liking. I received beans from Cantina coffee today "Crema bar" and used 20 g in 30 g out and 31 seconds and got good results. Better mouth feel robust, strong, dark especially with some sweetener and tiny amount of frothed milk.

June 3rd, 2022, 6:58 pm

iploya wrote:Buy a 5-lb bag of coffee so you have lots of the same coffee to practice with. Klatch and Black Oak are a few roasters I find to be consistent quality and good value, especially with online coupon.

I would also look at puck prep to make sure you are getting a uniform extraction. Stirring the grounds with a needle (fancy term is WDT), followed by a leveler tool (Amazon special is fine), then tamp.

None of the above tips are novel but they are simple things you can do that might improve the issues you describe.

Thanks iploya, I'm using wdt and leveler. Seems like I only need about 5 pulls of a coffee to learn it's character. Is this correct? I'm getting uniform extractions and examining my puck each time. What's difficult about talking about pucks is my voice recognition for dictating replaces the word puck with cock. When I wrote examining my puck each time it wrote examining my cock each time what is Apple doing are they perverted? I really have to check after this speech to text feature.

Where is klatch and black oak from? Are they dark roast beans are they from Brazil I've not had good results with Brazilian beans they seem to be too bright and floral for me. I watched a video on YouTube about Brazilian beans and they said that Brazil is more about quantity and not about quality is that an overgeneralization? Or is it just about the roast level?