Espresso newbie trying to pull better shots

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
spawn_x
Posts: 11
Joined: 8 years ago

#1: Post by spawn_x »

Hello. Been lurking and reading on here a LOT. Used to have a 50 dollar Bella espresso machine that I gave away and picked up a used Gaggia Classic, which prompted me to start reading. Based on the advice here I have picked up a Rattleware tamper, used Nuova Simonelli grinder (completely took apart and cleaned), scale, local fresh roasted beans, and have a bottomless PF on the way. I would eventually like a VST basket, however I think I am over my head as it is, and want to make decent shots before I complicate things even further.

My taste has not developed, but I feel less flavor and more sour/bitterness (I don't know which one is which) than Intelligentsia shots, so I know I am far from off.

Before the scale, I used to wipe the finger on the PF to clear out extra, but after the scale I realized there must have been like 22-23 grams at least. First I went down to 18g, now I am trying to stay around 16 grams to extract more flavor out of the coffee (or at least that is my goal).

I have to work on my dosing and tamping, the Simonelli does have some small clumps, so I may either use a needle or something.. my tamps are not always level either, I am pretty sure. This last shot I began weighting the finished shot, so I will post my question based on this last shot.

Coffee was roasted on 8/25. I put about 16.3 grams into the (stock) basket, tapping the basket several times while dosing to try to break up clumps (just read thread on here advising NOT to do it, so I will stop going forward). At the current grind setting it took about 37 seconds for the extraction (obviously longer than the 25-30 target) and the 2 ounce shot weighted 50 grams. First drop came out after about 9 seconds.

- I know my beans are pretty fresh and I've been reading you should wait 4-6 days after roasting
- I warm up the machine for ~5-10 minutes
- I tried reading about the weight and volume and got lost. I should be going for a 2:1 ratio right, with my 2 ounce shot weighting ~32 grams, correct?
- 25-30 second pull, with ~6-7 seconds before the first drop, yes?
- Before buying the scale I pulled some decent shots (to me anyway) filling to the top of the basket and going for 25-30 seconds, partially because it made the distribution and tamping more even.
- 16 grams ok or should I dose more with a gaggia classic? Grind coarser?


Thank you

Apogee
Posts: 124
Joined: 8 years ago

#2: Post by Apogee »

1) Ensure your water is suitable (test your water and try volvic; if your coffee tastes better you know you have a problem). Ensure your roaster knows what they are doing (ritual, heart, many others who own a refractometer and use it)
2) work on even tiger striped stable center extractions with your naked pf. I strongly recommend VST baskets.
3) Go to Matt Pergers Barista Hustle and read everything.
4) Get a cheap refractometer (Milwaukee ma871) to compliment your taste buds and optimize your technique. It will easily pay for itself in saved coffee. Ignore anyone who tells you it is optional; it's just as important as scales when learning.
5) don't give up; keep learning; you're doing amazing in my opinion.

NolaPaul
Posts: 30
Joined: 8 years ago

#3: Post by NolaPaul »

Looks like it's back down the rabbit hole for me. I feel like I'm going to wish I never learned of using refractometers while making espresso.


Sometimes I feel like the purpose of this forum is to keep my bank account in a perpetual state of disarray.

gr2020
Posts: 358
Joined: 8 years ago

#4: Post by gr2020 »

spawn_x wrote:Coffee was roasted on 8/25. I put about 16.3 grams into the (stock) basket, tapping the basket several times while dosing to try to break up clumps (just read thread on here advising NOT to do it, so I will stop going forward). At the current grind setting it took about 37 seconds for the extraction (obviously longer than the 25-30 target) and the 2 ounce shot weighted 50 grams. First drop came out after about 9 seconds.
Easy thing to start with - forget trying to get a 2 oz shot volume, and go by weight only. Put a scale under your cup, and stop your pours at your target weight.

If you started with 16.3g, and stopped the shot at say 33g (for a 1:2 ratio), your shot time probably would have run maybe 32s or so, which would have been closer to what you were expecting.

TheCastanza
Posts: 50
Joined: 8 years ago

#5: Post by TheCastanza »

I used to have a gaggia classic. I think 5-10 min warm up is not enough. I'd give it at least 20 and run a couple shots of water through it to warm it up. You can get a cheap appliance timer to help with this.

Also my classic never really got hot enough so I always had to flip down the steam switch for about ten seconds right before each shot to heat it up some more. Worth giving it a shot. Good luck!

DeGaulle
Posts: 545
Joined: 10 years ago

#6: Post by DeGaulle »

After you have allowed enough warm-up time, be aware that the boiler temperature will drift when the machine is idle, unless it has a PID. Assuming it doesn't, make sure to temperature surf before you start the extraction.
Run some water out of the steam wand until the heater kicks in. Then prep your coffee while the boiler heats up. By the time you are finished, the heater will have switched off and the boiler temp is about where it should be. Then lock and load.
Bert

User avatar
Hudson
Posts: 163
Joined: 10 years ago

#7: Post by Hudson »

Apogee wrote:4) Get a cheap refractometer (Milwaukee ma871) to compliment your taste buds and optimize your technique. It will easily pay for itself in saved coffee. Ignore anyone who tells you it is optional; it's just as important as scales when learning.
I (and I'm sure many others) really don't agree with this blanket statement. I starting getting into espresso a few years back and today I'll beat just about any cafe and make what is to me exceptional espresso - without ever needing a refratometer.

To offer you some advice, one thing that really helped me was to make an effort to visit some highly regarded shops and order espresso. This helped me understand differences between sourness and brightness and it's balance with bitterness. I think having a goal or baseline is really helpful and gives you something to work toward. Good luck.
LMWDP #534

day
Posts: 1316
Joined: 9 years ago

#8: Post by day »

Apogee wrote:1) Ensure your water is suitable (test your water and try volvic; if your coffee tastes better you know you have a problem). Ensure your roaster knows what they are doing (ritual, heart, many others who own a refractometer and use it)
2) work on even tiger striped stable center extractions with your naked pf. I strongly recommend VST baskets.
3) Go to Matt Pergers Barista Hustle and read everything.
4) Get a cheap refractometer (Milwaukee ma871) to compliment your taste buds and optimize your technique. It will easily pay for itself in saved coffee. Ignore anyone who tells you it is optional; it's just as important as scales when learning.
5) don't give up; keep learning; you're doing amazing in my opinion.
Come on now,
I was always a supporter of exploring your approach, but to throw out your opinion on a matter that clearly has a reasonable opposing position rooted in math and science and is often taken by those with significantly greater experience than yourself, seems something of a disservice to a newbie. To express your opinions openly is great, even linking to your previous thread on the topic, but such blankets statements as number 4 above without any caveat for the more mainstream views seems to be a bit disrespectful in my view.

I feel it too callously disregards the views of others as if they did not have reasons for them but were mere superstition and misunderstanding, which is simply not the case. I raise the issue because I think your a great addition to the dialogue around here, but such statements will do nothing to improve overall tone on the forums.
Yes, i you per this on an iPhone

day
Posts: 1316
Joined: 9 years ago

#9: Post by day »

spawn_x wrote:Hello. Been lurking and reading on here a LOT. Used to have a 50 dollar Bella espresso machine that I gave away and picked up a used Gaggia Classic, which prompted me to start reading. Based on the advice here I have picked up a Rattleware tamper, used Nuova Simonelli grinder (completely took apart and cleaned), scale, local fresh roasted beans, and have a bottomless PF on the way. I would eventually like a VST basket, however I think I am over my head as it is, and want to make decent shots before I complicate things even further.

My taste has not developed, but I feel less flavor and more sour/bitterness (I don't know which one is which) than Intelligentsia shots, so I know I am far from off.

Before the scale, I used to wipe the finger on the PF to clear out extra, but after the scale I realized there must have been like 22-23 grams at least. First I went down to 18g, now I am trying to stay around 16 grams to extract more flavor out of the coffee (or at least that is my goal).

I have to work on my dosing and tamping, the Simonelli does have some small clumps, so I may either use a needle or something.. my tamps are not always level either, I am pretty sure. This last shot I began weighting the finished shot, so I will post my question based on this last shot.

Coffee was roasted on 8/25. I put about 16.3 grams into the (stock) basket, tapping the basket several times while dosing to try to break up clumps (just read thread on here advising NOT to do it, so I will stop going forward). At the current grind setting it took about 37 seconds for the extraction (obviously longer than the 25-30 target) and the 2 ounce shot weighted 50 grams. First drop came out after about 9 seconds.

- I know my beans are pretty fresh and I've been reading you should wait 4-6 days after roasting
- I warm up the machine for ~5-10 minutes
- I tried reading about the weight and volume and got lost. I should be going for a 2:1 ratio right, with my 2 ounce shot weighting ~32 grams, correct?
- 25-30 second pull, with ~6-7 seconds before the first drop, yes?
- Before buying the scale I pulled some decent shots (to me anyway) filling to the top of the basket and going for 25-30 seconds, partially because it made the distribution and tamping more even.
- 16 grams ok or should I dose more with a gaggia classic? Grind coarser?


Thank you
Having used a Gaggia classic for about 5-6 years, I think it's a fun tool to start with but is mostly wasting time. Even with temp surfing and running probes all around you will be significantly limited. You can make some decent lattes on it and have a good time but I encourage you not to invest any money in to accessories specific to the classic. You will get much better espresso with a quality lever or could save up for an overall better machine and flip the classic for what you paid (assuming you got it used), but it your next machine may not have the same needs or size baskets, so I encourage you to use the stock double, have fun, and save up wile shopping for a great used deal or new if of the inclination. Definitely not going to get the consistency from a Gaggia classic to make a refractometer a useful expense in my view, but anyway, just my opinion.

As to dose, there are a few different baskets you may have, sounds like yours will likely work well at 16-18 but i could be wrong. At this point your technique is probably the single biggest hurdle, I would chop the portafilter and then focus on technique and experimenting while following my own advice above.
Yes, i you per this on an iPhone

samuellaw178
Supporter ♡
Posts: 2483
Joined: 13 years ago

#10: Post by samuellaw178 »

If my experience is of any indication, the Gaggia Classic will be the biggest limitation if you want to get any closer to the shots in Intelligentsia. Decent shots yes, but if Intelligentsia is what you're aspiring to, a machine upgrade is in the card. :P I had a Gaggia Carezza as my starter machine and learned on it (even went to PID route and had a bottomless pf for it). But my biggest instant improvement was when I transitioned to a lever, yes just by changing machine. Shots were so much smoother and completely different that I thought there was something wrong with the lever. :oops: You can even read my relatively noobie impression there. Too tame of a shot from La Peppina? :oops:

More recently (<1 year ago), I had purchased a used PID Silvia. It has the same taste profile that reminds me of my Gaggia (starter machine) - harsher/edgy, more airy/bubbly and more muted flavors (compared to current machines). I am not sure what is the reason but to me it almost seemed that these single boilers has a limitation inherent to the design (instead of technique related).

Also, the beans/roasts could be another reason. When I was pulling Blackcat from Intelligentsia on my starter machine(Gaggia) years ago, I could never pull a decent shot like they did in their cafe. The roast was on the lighter end and required quite some technique/equipment to get the best out of it. My shots were sour all the way that time with their beans. But as I said, that was years ago and they might have changed their roasting approach now. They were popular for their high dose short ristrettos back then.

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