Whether from a roaster or a "guide to espresso", the benchmarks are usually in relation to commercial machines or those with a similar extraction profile (pump on, pressure up, pump off). These machines have no extended preinfusion. What preinfusion they have is generally not long and related to the gicleur, pump type, and, in the case of a classic E61 design and some others, a small preinfusion chamber. TIming is usually pump on to pump off, with no "manual" intervention to provide a line-level or other preinfusion stage.

If you've got a lever or a machine with extended preinfusion, you need to find your own benchmarks.

Thankfully, coffee doesn't have a stopwatch. It does what it's going to do. Nunas hit it on the head. Do what works for your water, coffee, grinder, prep, basket, and machine to give you enjoyable results in the cup.

As for roaster recommendations, I generally take two things away from them, neither a hard number and both no more than just to guide a starting point:
* Longer, normal, or shorter ratio than a typical 1:2
* Cooler, normal, or warmer extraction temperature

Keep in mind that I'm a beginner. I don't really know what is possible in the shot quality department. The very first shot I pulled with my new machine and the beans I use for pour overs tasted just as good as the shots I tried at almost every coffee shot in my city - Oklahoma City - before deciding to try it at home. I don't know how to judge quality at all. I've read the "how to taste espresso" articles, but I really can't tell if my shots are good or great. SO, right now, I'm just trying to use the guidance I've gotten here and from experts on Youtube.

My machine has a unique pre-infusion chamber and I can program the amount of pre infusion. I have no idea what I'm doing, plus, I'm waiting for my much better grinder to arrive. So, I'm just trying different things but perhaps just spinning my wheels. Tomorrow I plan to roast an espresso blend I got from Sweet Marias and I will roast it quite a bit lighter than I usually do for pour overs and drip. I don't like light roasted coffee, but will try a little lighter for espresso and see how it compares. I thought I would try a 20-30 sec pre infusion time as well.

Thanks for all the advice. I wish I understood it all.

B

blutch wrote:I wish I understood it all.

So do I!

Congrats on getting tasty shots out of your gear already. That's a big accomplishment.

There's a lot of art tossed in with some experience. Even with well over a decade on a machine and grinder, when I changed machines, I had to relearn a lot of things. There are some general principles around what "big" changes like grind, dose, and ratio do, but they tend to be less helpful in the relatively new world of extraction profiling. One great place to start for that general insight, if you haven't read it already is

Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste

I just tried a shot with 20 secs of PI. Same roast, a bit finer. 18 in, 36 out. Tasted really good.. but about the same as before. The interesting thing is, the shot started dripping after only 10 seconds... I checked the setting.. 20 secs. I dunno. Good shot though!

B

If I'm trying to throw in preinfusion after trying to dial in without preinfusion, I "count" about half the preinfusion time towards the shot time. For example, if I got a pretty good shot at 32 seconds, but now I want to to add in a 10 sec preinfusion, I'll count half (5 sec) towards the shot time. That means after the preinfusion is done, I'll aim for an additional 27 seconds (37 seconds total) to roughly equal the previous 32 second shot. Of course, this is just a starting point, and I'll continue to adjust from there.

As others have said, there's no right or wrong way, but just try to be consistent with your own system and you'll start to develop a feel for things.

FWIW,

Slayer counts Pre-Brew what some call pre-infusion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nnK0paSulc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cERhZRqtVDc

Portions may or may not be relevant, YMMV depending on your machine.

Nunas wrote:The only thing that counts is whether you like the espresso. Experiment with preinfusion times, soaking, temperature, grinder calibration and so on (one at a time) until you find what works for you.

+1

Maurice just nailed it - You'll know when you get there!

FWIW, I aim for a 20-30 second extraction. I begin timing when the first drop hits my cup. This is made easy with the Acaia Lunar as you can set the timer up that way. I'm not an expert, I'm just sharing my technique.

blutch wrote:Keep in mind that I'm a beginner. I don't really know what is possible in the shot quality department. The very first shot I pulled with my new machine and the beans I use for pour overs tasted just as good as the shots I tried at almost every coffee shot in my city - Oklahoma City - before deciding to try it at home. I don't know how to judge quality at all. I've read the "how to taste espresso" articles, but I really can't tell if my shots are good or great. SO, right now, I'm just trying to use the guidance I've gotten here and from experts on Youtube.

My machine has a unique pre-infusion chamber and I can program the amount of pre infusion.

You're going to drive yourself nuts. Slow down a bit.

First, let's talk about tasting: I'm not an expert, but here's what I figured out, and so can you: When you pull a shot, swirl or stir the espresso, because the flavor changes as you draw the shot. So you've got to gently mix it. Then, taste it without milk or adding anything. If you aren't an espresso drinker, you don't have to drink it all, just swirl and give it a taste. Start with the two basic tastes: Bitter and Sour.

Bitter is the easiest. When you over-extract, the espresso will be bitter. Over-extracting happens if you draw the shot for too long or if the grind is too fine. You can definitely taste bitter! It hits the back of the tongue. Too bitter? Grind coarser.

Sour is more forward on the tongue. It makes your lips kind of wince. Initially, you'll confuse Sour with Bitter. That's ok; you'll just have to train yourself. Sour is basically the opposite of Bitter: It's under-extracted. This is why we swirl; the initial drips will be sour, right? Too sour? Grind finer.

In-between Bitter and Sour is where the coffee is correctly extracted, and the subtle flavors come out. There are other issues that can come up, such as too intense.Too Intense? Dose less, like 16g instead of 18~20g.

That's the basics of taste, in my opinion. Your milk will hide a lot of mistake, but when you pull shots that aren't too sour or bitter, the milk-based drinks will taste a lot better, too, especially if you don't over-heat your milk.

The Rest Goes Like This: Eliminate every single variable except the grind. Stop messing around with all the other settings. I suggest 3s of pre-infusion, because it puts you within the margin of time anyway. Temperature? 195 or 197F and KEEP it there. Keep your dose the same every time. I suggest 16g over 18g, but if you're going with 18g, KEEP it that way, because the dose size affects the grind and everything else. Same pre-infusion, same temperature, same dose size every single time, for at least a month. You're already happy with the taste, so work on these things:

• Distribution of the coffee into the portafilter
• Tamping evenly and consistently
• Adjust the grind to reach the time/weight

Once you dial in for the time/weight, make some more shots to be sure you're consistently hitting the time/weight. Once in a while you'll be way off; that's from channeling. It happens. Forget about all the other settings! If your Distribution/Tamp is consistently the same, you should have just ONE variable: The Grind Setting. That's how you dial in. After a month of making shots and tasting for Bitter/Sour, then you can look into tweaking settings like pre-infusion and temperature to improve the flavor even more.

Your sense of taste will improve over time. But if you start doing this tweaking every little setting and trying different beans with every shot, you'll just confuse yourself.

One Last Thing: The beans have to be fresh and your water has to taste good. Use beans which were roasted 5 to 14 days ago. That's it!

I took an online class about this from Clive Coffee. It was very helpful, and it comes with a 1:1 from the instructor who answers your questions after the class.

PeetsFan wrote:You're going to drive yourself nuts. Slow down a bit.

<elided>
Your sense of taste will improve over time. But if you start doing this tweaking every little setting and trying different beans with every shot, you'll just confuse yourself.

One Last Thing: The beans have to be fresh and your water has to taste good. Use beans which were roasted 5 to 14 days ago. That's it!

I took an online class about this from Clive Coffee. It was very helpful, and it comes with a 1:1 from the instructor who answers your questions after the class.

PeetsFan - I am SO freaking grateful for your reply to this thread. This reply has made the most sense to me of everything else I've ready. THANK YOU THANK YOU!

I like the idea of an online class. I'll look into that at Clive. I like their videos a lot.

One thing I've discovered since my original post is that since I ordered an ECM Bottomless portafilter with my machine (random choice) it came with a triple, 20 gram basket.. so, when using 18 grams there is so much headroom in the pf that I couldn't use the St. Anthony Industries tamper I ordered.. it just wouldn't stretch far enough. So, I've started using 20 grams in and 42 out and this is happening in about 38 seconds including 10 secs of preinfusion. I'm drinking shots without milk and enjoying them. I use fairly dark roasted Ethiopian that I roast and haven't had any sour shots as far as I can tell. I'm enjoying the shots and they seem pretty consistent. The other factor is I'm waiting for a good grinder that is on pre-order but delayed. Turn DF64. So, it sounds like your message to me is to just live with what I'm producing now for a month which hopefully will be when my grinder gets here and then I'll start over dialing that in.

Thanks again for taking the time to set me straight!
B