Great report!

There are two things on your to-do list that stand out.

I missed what your grinder is. There are probably thousands of posts here that will tell you the grinder matters. No need to repeat what's been said, but it's true.

The other thing is about dialing in your drink. I'm going to take your words literally about increasing the dose. Instead of "trying" a higher dose, this thread explains why changing your dose should be done with a goal in mind. It gives concrete steps to solve the acidic taste you reported earlier.

Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste

For whatever reason, in the beginning I thought adding to the dose was always better. What I learned from that thread was I was headed in the opposite direction of solving the problem.

Does anyone know what grinder this is? It looks like it would be a cheap upgrade to mine, but I'm not sure if I should go with it.

https://images.craigslist.org/00F0F_ebR ... 00x450.jpg

Hi everyone,

I wanted to share the latest on my journey towards good espresso.

First, I went to a couple of local shops to have their espresso because I was feeling like I was forgetting what I was striving to obtain. It was definitely a helpful endeavor.

Secondly, I purchased a new grinder. I got the Sette 270wi, and today in my very first shot things already tasted A LOT better. This was before dialing things in. I originally wasn't even going to taste it because the extraction happened WAY too fast, but I did it anyways just to see what was happening. I also made no accommodations for temperature in this first shot. I just wanted to see if my grind was at all in the ball park.

The interesting thing is that the more I made changes to get close to the 25-35s extraction... The worse things were starting to taste. I'm genuinely confused now.

Looks to me like you have done all the right things, and the Sette should eliminate any concerns about your grinder being an issue.

I would say that as long as you are weighing your dose in, and weighing the output so you can be consistent and vary the the output weight deliberately, don't worry at all about the time. If 25-35 seconds is tasting worse then move in the direction that tastes better.

It will be different with different roasts. I use one roast that tastes best in the 25-30 Gram range, one that tastes better in the 34-36 Gram range, both dosed at 20g. I've found that slower flows taste better to me, and I routinely exceed 40 second pulls on the shots. I seldom care about the time unless a) the taste is bad, or b) it is way out-of-family, pointing to something else wrong.

From my perspective, the amount of time it is taking you to get where you want to be is pretty decent, actually, and might even be a bit faster than a fair few of us here. Myself included. You're doing great!

Now that you can be fairly consistent and repeatable, this might be extra useful since you are now chasing taste instead of distribution, grind, etc.
I do it by swiping a spoon thru the pull over and over which is likely not the best way (like the cups) but it's still informative (and a bit surprising the first time or two).

Guys, I must confess... I'm getting a little discouraged.

I've been working on this for a while. I feel no closer than how I started. I've tried different distribution methods, flushing before extraction, NOT flushing before extraction, I've changed beans, upgraded my grinder, and I've practiced a ton and I simply can't seem to dial in an espresso shot.

I have tried the diagnostic thing from above, and the shot seemed to do exactly what I wanted it to. And then when I went to pull a full shot, it tasted bad again.

I don't know what to try next. It appears that my tamping has gone to crap too.

What's your current process, and have you ordered Eric's group thermometer yet? You really need to know where you're at for consistency...

Even so, you should have the water dance down by now, right? Flush for a bit, till the dance stops and then one additional second for each degree cooler. Assuming you're using a medium-ish roast, I'd flush another 5 seconds or so and then lock in and try it. Jim (@Tonefish) should have a better idea if flush and go is better than flush and wait on Mara. Flush and go is easier, but if your machine does better with a 30 second recovery than you need to know that.

Some folks find that they don't need to WDT with the Sette. Just grind, tap to settle the mound and tamp. Easy peasy. If your results are consistent but not matching what your local roaster puts out at the bar, as them what their recipe is. They should be perfectly willing to disclose their dose, brew temperature and yield. If they don't know these things, ask them to find out who does know and maybe try some mail order beans...

I get bad shots every now and again and usually I just need to get back to basics. Do the nickel test and make sure my dose is ok. Do a long flush and pull a cool shot to verify that it gets sour and acidic. Do a quick screen cleaning flush and verify that it's too hot (ash, bitter). Then split the difference and find that sweet spot. Temperature is everything. Too much coffee equals spritzers and under-extracted yuck. Too fine of a grind gets me an aspirin-like astringent flavor that temperature can't fix. If you're getting that, go a little coarser. Try a 23 second shot. Sometimes they are amazing. Some of my best shots spend more time preinfusing at line pressure than they do extracting. It's ok. Just follow your taste buds and pay attention to what they're telling you. Learn to tell the difference between under extracted and over, too cool and too hot, over-dosed and under. Follow Jim's guide step by step and you'll get there. Also check out Randy Glass' Easy Guide to Better Espresso at Home. It's amazing.

For whatever stupid reason, it took me years to make a shot I could drink straight and my milk drinks were still miles ahead of what I could order out at any retail chain and most of the boutique shops. There is no logical reason why I should have kept trying, but I'm glad I did.

Hang in there!

-Jake

I don't have the group thermometer yet... because... cash has started to become a factor.

Here is my routine as of this morning:

- Machine on for 30min
- let water flow (into cup) from 2 spouted (don't have a 1 spouted) portafilter for an extra second after the water stops dancing.
- After the dance, use sette to dose the coffee straight into naked portafilter
- tap portafilter once
- tamp
- Do a 5 second purge of group head as soon as I'm done with the tamp
- Extract

I did a little better with my tamping this morning as there were no obvious channels during extraction.

Here is the recipe that I used:

17.5g in, 35g out, 27 seconds

Results:

- Overall, better.
- Coffee definitely felt hotter than usual. This is the opposite of what I expected since, by virtue of the sette being so fast, I did not spend a lot of time between the initial flush and the second.
- Coffee was still a little on the sour?/bitter? profile. However, today it was drinkable. Flavor moved away from the original sour?/bitter? thing and became a little more bland.
- I'm still getting no sweetness out of it, though.

All in all, I was able to get two shots with a consistent time frame. The espresso is drinkable, so I'm going to keep this as my starting point... I think. I'm not sure if I should slow or speed up the extraction... So, this afternoon I'll try one where I slow it a little (30s) and another where I speed it up a little (24s) and see which one is moving in the right direction.

For my next one I'll maintain the recipe of 1:2...

I wouldn't change the recipe...

Leave everything the same but do a 7 second flush before locking in and pulling the shot. This will drop the temperature a few degrees and will be better or worse that this morning. The key is to identify if it is more sour or less bitter, or less sour or more bitter. If results are inconclusive, try 9 seconds. You want to get to the point where the espresso gets cooler and tastes cooler.

Since you don't have the ability to flush a negative amount of time and you can't adjust Mara's boiler temperature, we have to work in the direction we can. Your water dance is heating the group head. When you dose and tamp, the water in the HX is recovering and the group head is likely cooling off just a bit. Depending on the recovery time, your flush right before the shot continues the group cooling (if the group is hotter than the recovered HX water) or heats the group again (if the HX water is hotter than the group). This is why the temp gauge is so helpful. You know the temp of the group, which is good. And you know if it get hotter when you flush that your HX water is hotter than the group, if it gets cooler, the opposite is true. It just gives you some intuition into your flush routine that is difficult to get otherwise.

You can figure it out without the gauge, but understand that you're not alone in your frustration and that it takes time and a diligent approach to learn what flavor characteristics are linked to temperature and how to control them when you're shooting in the dark.

Cheers!

- Jake

dialling in should not be that difficult. As a 100% beginner, I had my Profitec pro 500 with settle 270 working within 30 minutes of unpacking the equipment. But I did have a brew temp issue and didn't get great espresso for another 24 hours.. Now I had studied this site and espresso making for about a month.. My only problem was with water temp. I eventually guessed that my brew temp was too low. Once I upped that (with adjustable PID), everything was perfect.

I really think this is where your issue might be .. since you've got a new grinder and worked at the rest, that is the only variable left.

If you are unhappy and can't get what you want, I'd return the machine.