Dialing in for 2 weeks, cannot make 1 drinkable espresso - Page 3

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
Coffcarl
Posts: 260
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#21: Post by Coffcarl »

Could it be a combination of boiler pressure too low (1.0 bar seems a bit low) and pump pressure too high? I never got good satisfactory results from my Silvia v1 even though I pid'd it, and attribute that to not bothering to add an adjustable opv.

If the pump pressure at the portafilter is too high, you may not be able to use a coarse enough grind. Your grind might have too many fines in it when you are able to get the proper flow rate of 25-30 seconds. I would try lowering the pump pressure via the opv.

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Subrutum
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#22: Post by Subrutum replying to Coffcarl »

Let's not draw conclusions based on speculation for now. We do not want to introduce speculative problems, we just want to solve OP's current problems...lets wait for the video? :)
Magician of the Great Coffee Bean Pressure-Extraction Machine.

Bluenoser
Posts: 1436
Joined: 6 years ago

#23: Post by Bluenoser »

Subrutum wrote: (but please do measure the temperature of the [brew] water and confirm that it matches the set[desired]temperature)
man.. if that were easy I'd have way fewer rants about HX's.. :D

Espresso_Junky
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#24: Post by Espresso_Junky »

Subrutum wrote:Let's not draw conclusions based on speculation for now. We do not want to introduce speculative problems, we just want to solve OP's current problems...lets wait for the video? :)
Totally agree with Coffcarl as based on HX machines I've used 1.0 bar is a bit low and pump output could indeed be a problem. Wouldn't call it speculation, but just offering possible issues to address. I will also mention that the OP was asking for buying advice on Reddit recently and seemed to have gotten talked into buying a prosumer machine right off the bat so no 'upgrading' would be needed in the near future. He seems rather frustrated that great espresso can't be had right out of the gate regardless of how much is spent. I was one that kind of advised him to choose something more in line with his use/expectations with a much faster learning curve. Live and learn... He has a nice/capable setup and hope he figures out how to maximize it.

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Subrutum
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#25: Post by Subrutum »

Espresso_Junky wrote:buying advice on Reddit recently and seemed to have gotten talked into buying a prosumer machine right off the bat so no 'upgrading' would be needed in the near future.
That's actually pretty sound advice if you're aiming for specialty quality. The machines do not fight the barista but work with and for the barista instead.

OP, Know that it would take around 3 months of self-practice in order to consistently pull out drinkable shots. The result of practice is worth it and we're here to help. That being said, the most common mistake for beginners and new equipment owners is to over-correct the grind size.

Just play with the machine...one notch at a time. This may feel like a waste of beans at first but once the equipment is roughly dialed in is the only time one can start getting consistent output and nothing is worse for equipment than mechanical/thermal/electrical shock.

Also, send the vid asap pls :)
Magician of the Great Coffee Bean Pressure-Extraction Machine.

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truemagellen
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Joined: 14 years ago

#26: Post by truemagellen »

An e61 grouphead thermometer can be purchased at Amazon prime so if it doesn't work u can return it. Although it is not of the quality that the site sponsers carry or Eric's which I recommend.

I see you mentioned you are doing the flush with portsfilter in as you stated steam comes out spout, is that correct? Is that a second portsfilter or a misstype/missunderdtand by me?

You mentioned a decent amount of space between puck and top of basket. Did you end up doing the space test? I wonder if you have a deep basket in there. Which would be easy to channel if not filled.

I know this is another variable but you might be over tamping and disturbing the puck. If you grind and distribute, just tamp what feels good and level. Take this lbs variable out of your thinking relax and you got this!

Anyone nearby can help him in person?

RyanLovesCoffee (original poster)
Posts: 51
Joined: 5 years ago

#27: Post by RyanLovesCoffee (original poster) »

Subrutum wrote:That's actually pretty sound advice if you're aiming for specialty quality. The machines do not fight the barista but work with and for the barista instead.

OP, Know that it would take around 3 months of self-practice in order to consistently pull out drinkable shots. The result of practice is worth it and we're here to help. That being said, the most common mistake for beginners and new equipment owners is to over-correct the grind size.

Just play with the machine...one notch at a time. This may feel like a waste of beans at first but once the equipment is roughly dialed in is the only time one can start getting consistent output and nothing is worse for equipment than mechanical/thermal/electrical shock.

Also, send the vid asap pls :)
Ok, we need a video :lol:
https://streamable.com/wpcit

Couple notes before watching the video:
1. Sorry for the terrible videography. "Hey mom, want to record me making coffee so I can show a bunch of strangers on the internet so they can criticize my coffee making skills?" =D
2. I was not aiming for anything particular for this shot, just wanted to follow a typical routine so people can point out what I could be doing wrong in my general technique that may be the cause of all my problems.
3. There was an usual amount of clumping in this basket. This is not normal, maybe it's because I had just adjusted grind settings finer.
4. Yes, having such a large scale cliffing off my drip tray will result in inaccurate readings, I plan on buying a new one. But a change in 1 or 2 grams of output should not result in undrinkable shots, so I think it is the least of my worries.
5. Please note how the extraction starts out nice, but blonds and thins very quickly. This happens consistently with all my extractions, except for the extractions where the grinds are obviously way too coarse and the extraction comes out water thin from the start. My roaster does 18/40 with these same beans, and even though I was aiming for 14/31, I had to stop it short at 14/23 because it obviously had blonded and thinned way beforehand. You may advise me to dose more, go finer, or change anything else, but this seems to be a recurring theme.

Bluenoser
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#28: Post by Bluenoser »

truemagellen wrote: I know this is another variable but you might be over tamping and disturbing the puck. If you grind and distribute, just tamp what feels good and level. Take this lbs variable out of your thinking relax and you got this!

Anyone nearby can help him in person?
I had very good luck just filling basket half full and tapping around to level and rapping the bottom on the table to settle grounds then filling rest and repeating. Then a tamp. Again a bottomless portafilter is one of those required tools to really see if there are any glaring flaws in your distribution. Consider it something like a milk jug. Maybe you can borrow one to see it's advantages. Some grinders require less fiddling with the grounds than others.

Bluenoser
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#29: Post by Bluenoser »

Watched the video..

A few notes, but I am a beginner at this stuff.. you really want Jake and others to comment.

The scale is a large scale and only seems accurate to 0.5 g and it is likely rated +/- 1 g.. I'd get a much smaller scale good to 0.01g which you can often get at Walmart for about $20. And you noted that you are getting a better scale. A 0.1g scale is fine, but I've tried a bunch and like the 0.01 as they are fast and accurate. They can't weigh the entire portafilter easily but work fine for the basket or a small cup that holds the grounds. You'll be more consistent with a better scale.

Your distribution looks okay.. but ideally viewing a bottomless extraction is much more informative.

I think the whole flush thing with the single spouted is pure guess-work. I'm harsher on HX technology than others, but I think the group thermometer is the bare minimum you need to make any HX usable. And then most people who are 'fussy' on their brew water temperature (maybe use a wide range of roast levels) 'calibrate' their workflow using both the group thermometer and a SCACE. (likely they borrow the SCACE for a bit). If you got a thermometer within your 'return' window, you can totally uninstall and the group is in its original condition (but why would you buy one if you weren't keeping the unit)

I find my extractions also blonded faster than I thought they would. So I likely have some of those same issues. I think a slightly coarser grind might help a bit. I also reduced my pressure a bit. Down from 9.5 bar to about 8.5 bar.

Visually, the result looked good! I think if you didn't like the taste, my best guess might be:
1. Brew water not optimum temperature
2. What water did you say you were using? It might be imparting a 'taste'. I use RO (or distilled) water with third wave crystals this is an easy way to get good tasting water that doesn't develop scale inside the machine. Just looked back.. looks like you are using filtered water.. just taste to see if it has any unusual aftertaste or anything you might need to alter. If you ultimately get the machine, you might want to be 'fussier' on the chemicals in the water to extend the lifetime of your machine as "scale' is the number 1 enemy of boilers. The water you have now is likely fine for taste.

Be aware that getting a group thermometer does not solve all issues. The group thermometer is still measuring the water some distance from the puck and so there is still a bit of interpretation needed to view its reading and to estimate the water leaving the group. This is because of the effect of the mass of the E61. You can read about 'flush and wait' and 'flush and go' methods. There are lots of discussions about this on here. I find that about 2/3 of the way through the 'pull' the thermometer is pretty close to the temp leaving the screen. (Have yet to confirm with a SCACE on mine, but that is my theory). But overall you really get a better 'feel' for the thermal effects on your brew water from your flushing routines.

I agree with below comment.. you have a better handle on the extraction than I did within a short time of having my machine.

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truemagellen
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#30: Post by truemagellen »

Ok watched your video.

2 quick points

1) you are over flushing given the lower boiler pressure it is set at. Take off the portsfilter during flush and run it so you can see what is going on, until there is more of a flow and the steam water dance settles down. This may only be 3/4 secs given the 1 bar setting.

2) that dose is low for that basket. Bring it up to 18gr. This would normally require you dial grinder coarser but try it as is and back off so very slightly, almost such a small turn you are wondering did I change anything? And repeat until golden

You are seriously close and have made huge progress!

Machine looks awesome btw.

hx machines have a big advantage over double boiler, immense steaming so dont worry about your machine choose as that one is a dream machine for many of us on here

Where in Texas are you there are tons of guys in all the major cities who could come by with bottomless portafilters.