Dialing In Espresso Extraction Temperature

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
Joejoe
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#1: Post by Joejoe »

It seems like there are 2 conflicting truths of espresso

1) 14g of grinds in a regular double basket gives you the most reproducible results

2) You need to adjust the dose to truly get the ideal character out of a certain bean


So jumping into this espresso thing head first with my first newly acquired machine being a quick mill double boiler set up, is there a way to adjust the extraction temp with my PID to get around this dose adjustment so I can dial in my beans keeping the 14g dose

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cannonfodder
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#2: Post by cannonfodder »

No
Dave Stephens

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bostonbuzz
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#3: Post by bostonbuzz »

No, no.
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mitch236
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#4: Post by mitch236 »

Joejoe wrote:It seems like there are 2 conflicting truths of espresso

1) 14g of grinds in a regular double basket gives you the most reproducible results
This is untrue. But having said that, I am a proponent of keeping the number of variables as low as possible when learning how to pull espresso and 14 Gm is a good dose to stick with so for your purposes, keep the dose constant at 14 Gm until you feel comfortable that you are changing the dose to get a specific result.
Joejoe wrote:2) You need to adjust the dose to truly get the ideal character out of a certain bean
Not necessarily. You change the dose to balance the bitter/acid with the middle flavors (mostly sweetness). Think of the taste having three parts; bitter and acidic at the opposite extremes and sweetness in the middle (with the more delicate flavors usually being in the middle ground also). The higher dose brings out the extremes while lowering the dose lets the middle flavors expose themselves. That's what makes 14 Gm doubles nice to learn with because you avoid extreme flavors overwhelming the flavor.[/quote]
Joejoe wrote:So jumping into this espresso thing head first with my first newly acquired machine being a quick mill double boiler set up, is there a way to adjust the extraction temp with my PID to get around this dose adjustment so I can dial in my beans keeping the 14g dose

You can pull successful shots at 14 Gm. They might not be optimal for a given bean but I assure you a good tasting shot can be had at 14 Gm. In fact, some users (Ken Fox if I recall correctly) only pulled 14 Gm doubles. However, don't let changing the dose hold you back. Personally, I prefer keeping my machine's temperature set and change dose/grind to dial in. I rarely have to resort to temperature change to dial in a great tasting shot.

Look at this thread: Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste

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Spitz.me
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#5: Post by Spitz.me »

Further to what has been mentioned, why did you assume that intra-shot temperature adjustment could replace/duplicate grind/dose adjustment?
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Joejoe (original poster)
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#6: Post by Joejoe (original poster) »

I am starting to get it, I guess I have a tough time with dose because before I figured a right amount of extraction is a right amount of extraction, regardless if it was achieved by altering the dose, grind, agitation (drip), but it is not.

Like with my pour overs that I have been doing for a few years, I can get more body, nuttiness, and caramelized sugars if I agitate the slurry, presumably aiding in getting the heavier compounds out. If I am more gentle I get more delicate flavors out, both ways I can get balanced extractions. I am just having a tough time wrapping my head around the same concept with espresso.

It seems from what I have observed from my pour overs, from what I have read on here (lots from jim), and making an ungodly amount of espresso recently is

A) Finer grinds give up the heavier compounds easier than course grinds, perhaps because they saturate faster?

B) There are both light and heavy compounds that are acidic and bitter (perhaps not heavy acidic compounds)

C) The lighter compounds are typically what gives a specific bean it's character while the dark more generic coffee flavors are heavier and are a product of the roast

D) The overall balance of the extraction, whether it is sour or bitter is based on the flow of the extraction, lungo vs ristretto flows

E) Because the agitation is fixed with espresso, you can "attack" those heavier compounds by grinding finer, but in doing so you slow down the flow so you have to increase the dose to get a proper extraction.

I am not saying this is true, I am saying this is how I am conceptualizing it, please comment and let me know?

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RapidCoffee
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#7: Post by RapidCoffee »

Joejoe wrote: A) Finer grinds give up the heavier compounds easier than course grinds, perhaps because they saturate faster?

B) There are both light and heavy compounds that are acidic and bitter (perhaps not heavy acidic compounds)

C) The lighter compounds are typically what gives a specific bean it's character while the dark more generic coffee flavors are heavier and are a product of the roast

D) The overall balance of the extraction, whether it is sour or bitter is based on the flow of the extraction, lungo vs ristretto flows

E) Because the agitation is fixed with espresso, you can "attack" those heavier compounds by grinding finer, but in doing so you slow down the flow so you have to increase the dose to get a proper extraction.
What do you mean by "heavier" and "lighter" compounds? Are you referring to molecular weight, or is this your own definition based on taste? Sounds like you are defining "lighter" as "extracts quicker" and "heavier" as "extracts slower". Answers to A-C depend critically on this definition.

D) Flow rate influences the taste profile, but so do other factors (like brew temperature).

E) A finer grind requires a lower dose to maintain correct flow, not an increased dose.
John

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Spitz.me
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#8: Post by Spitz.me »

mitch236 wrote:You can pull successful shots at 14 Gm. They might not be optimal for a given bean but I assure you a good tasting shot can be had at 14 Gm. In fact, some users (Ken Fox if I recall correctly) only pulled 14 Gm doubles. However, don't let changing the dose hold you back. Personally, I prefer keeping my machine's temperature set and change dose/grind to dial in. I rarely have to resort to temperature change to dial in a great tasting shot.

Look at this thread: Espresso 101: How to Adjust Dose and Grind Setting by Taste
Joejoe, you should really stop and think AFTER you've read the thread Mitch was referring to. It seems your confusion is because of your assumptions and how you're trying to translate what you know about pour-over preparation into espresso preparation. Inform yourself.

Basically start with trying to achieve a 60% brew ratio (eg. 18g of beans and 30g in the cup) at 30s, including dwell time, just to start. Keep it simple at first. Frankly speaking, the Espresso 101 thread tells you all you need to know before you start chasing tunnels in the rabbit hole.
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Joejoe (original poster)
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#9: Post by Joejoe (original poster) »

I guess I threw around the words light and heavy. I don't really know what the molecular weight is, but if I had to guess I would say they were heavier. Lets call them the caramelized flavors. And I THINK they are created when the sugars are caramelized during the later phases of the roasting process.

I know that they contribute to the body of the drink, so maybe not heavier but stickier, joking.

Either way they seem to be extracted differently, you can't just extract something more and expect to get them out, with other extraction methods you can go from sharply acidic to sharply bitter with no caramel sweetness inbetween.

I don't think I am the only one thinking this, I have read all kinds of stuff from Jim that says grind size is what dictates this balance with espresso, I think I have also found this to be true will other brew methods especially noticeable on the aeropress and Clever where you can manipulate the variables easy.

An example would be the difference in brews on the clever dripper where one had a course grind, the other a fine, different steep times to get proper extraction, and completely different cups.

I understand espresso is different but it is still just extracting solubles with a solvent, it just seems to be exacerbated because its under pressure.

And yes, I mis-wrote, finer grind needs less dose, my bad.

mitch236
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#10: Post by mitch236 »

Sounds like you need to read this: http://www.coffeecuppers.com/Espresso.htm

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