another_jim wrote:You are using the technique I describe. Your tasting notes indicate that the shots are over-extracted and too mild for your taste. You certainly want to grind coarser, and maybe drop the temp too. You should be going for a much shorter pre-infusion time. Other things to try are using a basket with less head space, or cranking up with initial water debit rate in the fist few seconds of the shot before the pressure starts climbing.

I think this is the question I've been trying to get at all along.

To clarify what you're saying, when using roasts such as the ones I'm describing the grind should be made coarser than a normal e61 shot so that you can hit a shorter (5-10 second ?) 2 bar pre-infusion time to first drops? From there the flow control should be used to maintain a visually consistent flow rate until the final shot weight is reached. Do I have this correct?

What role does reducing the headspace play in all of this? Generally I'm aiming to pass a nickle test on my basket and I have a pretty good feel for that on the 18g ridged VST I use almost all of the time. The ridge provides an excellent benchmark for headspace. Do you find VST baskets for flow control a no-no?

You are suggesting hitting the puck with more force briefly before the pressure starts to rise. Using a full 7-9ml/sec flow? Then down to 2 bar for the PI then up to peak pressure (6-9 bar) then declining to maintain steady flow to final output weight? Correct?

Thanks for the information. Very helpful.

pcrussell50 wrote:Homogenization is to be expected versus stratification and separation, with long PI profiled shots. I get the same thing. Though with the lighter roasts I like, I don't feel like there are as many layers to homogenize or stratify anyway. If you want more top notch Jim-ism, read his first few posts here: Lelit Bianca Review Yes, it's a Bianca review. BUT almost all of the first few posts is about flow control and could be applied to any machine with that capability.

-Peter

What do you feel are the upside to the flavor from flow control shots on medium- medium dark roasts? What should I be looking for? As I've said, initially I was trying for the taste profile I know from a Cremina. Those shots have the homogenized characteristic but all of the individual notes are still there.

PIXIllate wrote: What do you feel are the upside to the flavor from flow control shots on medium- medium dark roasts? What should I be looking for? As I've said, initially I was trying for the taste profile I know from a Cremina. Those shots have the homogenized characteristic but all of the individual notes are still there.

I am a novice at all this. I was helped by this whole latte love video. In particular for medium roast blends, the one that begins as a normal 9 bar extraction then tapers the flow for the remainder of the extraction. It makes a subtle but distinct improvement. There is a lever and slayer profile as well.

PIXIllate wrote: What do you feel are the upside to the flavor from flow control shots on medium- medium dark roasts? What should I be looking for? As I've said, initially I was trying for the taste profile I know from a Cremina. Those shots have the homogenized characteristic but all of the individual notes are still there.

Good choice to use the Cremina example on me since I have a couple of it's close siblings. For medium to medium-dark the advantage is to be able to throttle back down after reaching target pressure. Which is something you almost do automatically with a direct lever where you can feel the resistance in the puck. I find it enhances sweetness. The other thing is pre infusion. As a general rule of thumb, I find that longer pre infusion tames down the brightness/acidity in certain roasts. And apparent color is not always a reliable guide here. Coffee "B" in the recent HB anonymous taste testing did not look all that light to me. But with 20-25s pre infusion at about 1 bar pressure, followed by 20-25s more extraction time (using the standard lever style pressure decline), that really woke up that bean. Transformed it from my least favorite of the HB mystery offerings, to my favorite. And to my eye, it didn't look like it was light enough to benefit from that much pre infusion.

-Peter

another_jim wrote:You are using the technique I describe. Your tasting notes indicate that the shots are over-extracted and too mild for your taste. You certainly want to grind coarser, and maybe drop the temp too. You should be going for a much shorter pre-infusion time. Other things to try are using a basket with less head space, or cranking up with initial water debit rate in the fist few seconds of the shot before the pressure starts climbing.

This!

These are exactly the things I did this week with the Bocca Soulmate which was roasted much darker than I thought it would be. Worked out very nice. #DCMina #stilllearning

pcrussell50 wrote:As a general rule of thumb, I find that longer pre infusion tames down the brightness/acidity in certain roasts.-Peter

Only certain? Not all?

pcrussell50 wrote:And apparent color is not always a reliable guide here. Coffee "B" in the recent HB anonymous taste testing did not look all that light to me.
-Peter

A good example of the opposite is Martella Maximum from Rome which isn't dark at all but tastes like how a real Italian should!

Hi,
The tonino color meter looks very useful. But is it really cost 649 pounds?
thanks
Bill

https://my-tonino.com/shop/en/tonino

I guess so.....