I have Pro500PID with Stock basket and Sette 270 and have gotten pretty consistent extractions using minimal WDT. (Used to just 1/2 fill, tap, fully fill, tap and then tamp). I recently switched to a VST 18g basket.. I dose 17g of a Daterra Yellow, which is a medium-dark espresso blend. Within 2 weeks of roast.

When I went to the VST basket I notice lots of dead zones in the extraction. Grinding coarser did not help. Nor did all kinds of WDT techniques, like stirring in PF; just using a Distribution tool with no tamping; grinding into cup, then stirring, then into PF, light tamp, hard tamp, preinfusion (put on pump for 2 sec, wait 10 sec then fully engage), etc.

My theory is that my Sette 270 might be making too many fines that are plugging some of the holes of the VST basket.. So my question is if this theory is reasonable, and if anyone else with a Sette 270 series has these issues with VST baskets. I clean the Sette religiously.. every 2 weeks.. fully brush out (no grindz)

I plan to try to get a MonoCon in their next production run.. and wonder what experience people have with VST and the MonoCon (vs the Flat).. I don't want to have to buy a flat as I think the conical will exceed my taste buds for many years.

I'll try a few more things.. but might have to eventually switch back to the stock Profitec basket.

Try tapping your portafilter down against your tamping mat several times to collapse after WDT. Use a very fine device for WDT in the basket and stir vigorously, extending the tool all the way down. The spirograph pattern works well for me, one time around clockwise, then counterclockwise with a final whisk around the upper layer to clear any stray coffee from my dosing funnel.

Then tap downwards to collapse everything. It works. When I'm finished tapping, my distribution tool barely skims the surface of what's left in the basket, knocking down the high spots, but leaving a few low spots. While this isn't ideal and I should adjust my distribution tool, mine is fixed, so this condition verifies that I have properly collapsed the mound. I then use my tamper to create a uniform surface.

VST or otherwise, Sette or MonoCon, this process should cure your distribution issues.

And yes, dead spots are distribution issues.

Cheers!

- Jake

Just wanted to add that VST baskets are generally known to be more finicky handlers... likely to channel and spritz. Their mojo comes from being fast flowing, so you can grind finer without having to dose less, when you are dialing in a grind. They are in a category we loosely refer to as "high extraction" baskets. But high extraction baskets are not necessarily called for, for all situations. I keep both kinds around, myself. With a flow controllable machine I find myself using high extraction baskets less, and regular baskets more.

For the record, I have a Monolith FlatSSP, and every shot I RDT, grind into a vessel, whisk/stir aggressively, then transfer to portafilter with a funnel before starting what Jake has described. At 3-6 shots a day it's little bother.

-Peter

The distribution definitely helped.. I made a crude WDT tool with pins and a cork.. I tried the Spirograph technique (is this still a toy? ).. I have an adjustable OCD knockoff so adjusted that to skim the top.. then tamped.. The grind was too fine and so now need to adjust coarser, but there was only one dead spot where I had several before.. and spurting was gone.

This basket is waaaayyyy fussier than the stock.. I only need minimal WDT with that one and seldom had any spurting. So got a bit spoiled.

This new basket seems to be more precise in grind size as well. A little change in grind adjustment makes much more difference in the extraction time than the stock.

I'll continue to adjust and see how it goes. I've also recently gotten a Robot and I'm really happy with it.. It seems to be much easier to get a good extraction by doing a preinfusion then controlling the pressure on the handles.. Initially it seems to not only be easier to use than my HX, but also gives better taste. Will have to do more testing when we get a good 'snow day'.. Just don't want as much snow as Newfoundland recently got. They have the armed forces digging them out now.

I think I got a workflow that works fairly well now with my Sette & Pro500 and the VST basket and the taste is much improved.

I grind into the PF with funnel and then do quite a bit of stirring with a latte art pen (pretty thin). I shake somewhat flat and use an OCD tool to distribute the top..then rap and tamp..

The dead zones are much reduced. I found that I actually needed to grind a little coarser and have more flow than my stock basket for good taste.. As soon as I went finer on my grinder, it seemed to increase the dead zones and/or channeling.. The flow looked okay, except parts of the extraction circle were much blonder than others (so some channeling) With the stock basket i was often pulling between 30-40 seconds and with the VST I need to stay under 30 seconds. And that makes some sense.. the coarser you can keep it, the more even your water will flow through the puck.. As the puck gets denser, it does seem that the water will look more for weaknesses and tend to channel more.

Read about keeping the grind coarser in the "new espresso extraction method" topic out recently and it did improve the taste. I do find that little changes in my grind setting makes a big change in the output.. Am hoping to get a MonoCon to help make the grind a bit more consistent.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Re ^^^

With my Monolith FlatSSP, I found dead zones significantly reduced (eliminated actually), the more vigorous the mixing. So rather than try to fight the battle with trying vigorous mixing while in the portafilter, I just nip it in the bud and grind into a separate vessel and stir whisk shake, what have you, before transferring to the portafilter for a quick stir to level with a thin tip, (I use a dissecting needle, but you can use anything, paper clip, piece of wire, whatever).

-Peter

Have you tried no tamping? I see WLL is only using an OCD tool to distribute and no tamp on their Profitec/ECM machines (even without activating the flow control). I assume the tool is adjusted pretty deep so it also compresses the grounds somewhat. I quickly tried this and had zero results, but might not have had the OCD knockoff adjusted properly. The stirring is definitely helping quite a bit. The VST basket requires much better prep than the standard profitec.

I haven't tamped for a couple of years. I still do a test tamp every so often to see if the grooming tool didn't do the trick, and because old habits are hard to break.

Yes, the VST basket (as well as all the other high extraction baskets that have come out since) is much more finicky than a standard basket. With flow control, I find that I rarely need (don't need) high extraction baskets any more. So I haven't used my VSTs in some time. No need with flow control.

-Peter

pcrussell50 wrote: With flow control, I find that I rarely need (don't need) high extraction baskets any more. So I haven't used my VSTs in some time. No need with flow control.

-Peter

Hi Peter,

Can you elaborate on why this is the case? Wouldn't there still be some advantage to precision high extraction baskets even with flow control, like the consistent hole diameter and the ability to grind finer? Not challenging your assertion, just trying to understand, as I use VST baskets on my Bianca and now I'm wondering if there is some disadvantage to this combo outside of more involved puck prep.

Best regards,
Dimitri

Part of the whole deal with flow control is that you can grind super fine and still soften the puck as much as you like with a super low flow pre infusion. The reason for fast baskets like VST in traditionally-able machines (IOW no flow control) was so that you could grind fine, without down-dosing, and the fast flow characteristic would hopefully not choke your flow if you didn't have unlimited low flow to soften the puck. You have a Bianca, so you have no such worries. But you or any of us with machines with that capability, myself included, should read and periodically re read the first seven posts of this bit from Jim: Lelit Bianca Review The first seven are brand agnostic... a treatise on the why's and wherefores of flow control.

As for even hole sizes and spacings, that's probably more a second order effect. But even still, these days there are plenty of traditional flowing baskets with even holes. Breville is one and I am told EPNW's HQ baskets are too. The older Breville one I like is getting hard to find, so I'm using the EPNW ones more and more.

-Peter