Dark roast coffee requiring much finer grind than medium roast? - Page 2

Beginner and pro baristas share tips and tricks for making espresso.
cmin
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#11: Post by cmin »

Don't bother trying to figure this out as your using Starbucks, loooooooong since stale by the time you buy, and their charred crappy defect beans lol. That and VST baskets is a recipe for disaster no matter what grinder, just not possible to pull, well, you can, just will be terrible. It's like trying to drive a car around with 4 flat tires, you can but...

Something like Chromatic Opus is a darker roast, about the best dark roast around imo, and very forgiving dialing.

alexanders5700 (original poster)
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#12: Post by alexanders5700 (original poster) »

Thank you for the suggestion for a good dark roast, I will see of I can get it here in Canada (either in-store, or delivery).

So I understand that the SB beans are bad, so I will chalk the fast shot time down to bad beans.
Once i get a better dark roast, hopefully I will see a more realistic grind size to get me to the late 20s shot time I'm looking for.

One last thing, just a question on the VST basket. Why would it have a detrimental impact on the shot time (given the SB beans)?
Presumably the VST works great with good quality beans (as it's consistently recommended), but it actually makes things worse with bad beans?

Just a final note, I did move the grind finer again this morning, to a 6, and got the shot time to 27 seconds (17g in, 34g out), so it "did" finally get there, but just took me further finer than I would have imagined.

It is what it is! On the lookout for better dark roasts!

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cafeIKE
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#13: Post by cafeIKE »

IMO, Charbux is never worth effort. Anytime I get gifted some, it's D2B*

I have a Niche and for dark coffees, I usually grind a number or so finer than medium roasts, increase the dose 3-5g and use a triple basket. Truth in advertising: NONE of my dozen or so baskets are VST.


* Direct to Bin

cmin
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#14: Post by cmin »

alexanders5700 wrote:Thank you for the suggestion for a good dark roast, I will see of I can get it here in Canada (either in-store, or delivery).

So I understand that the SB beans are bad, so I will chalk the fast shot time down to bad beans.
Once i get a better dark roast, hopefully I will see a more realistic grind size to get me to the late 20s shot time I'm looking for.

One last thing, just a question on the VST basket. Why would it have a detrimental impact on the shot time (given the SB beans)?
Presumably the VST works great with good quality beans (as it's consistently recommended), but it actually makes things worse with bad beans?

Just a final note, I did move the grind finer again this morning, to a 6, and got the shot time to 27 seconds (17g in, 34g out), so it "did" finally get there, but just took me further finer than I would have imagined.

It is what it is! On the lookout for better dark roasts!
If your just starting out, sounds like you fell for the VST hype (no offense meant). Their not only extremely finicky of prep but also bean(S), grinder etc. Imo I don't care for them all these years later. Far prefer my HQ baskets from espresso parts and I've been using a ridgeless 21 since 2012 till this day. I'll pull out my VST 20 and 18 once in awhile play, and put right back in the drawer. I have never had one single shot that was as good as the HQ baskets with them and their a pain in the ass to use. There's more holes on VST, their fast flowing baskets.

But going back to Starbucks, beans that bad and stale will always flow fast and messy no matter what, that's why your seeing fast shot times. I'm sure I could grind even fine and to the point of doing a 30+ second long PI at low or high bar pressure holding and could pull but it'll still be swill, and channeled flowing mess lol.

Highly doubt you'll find Chromatic in a shop there, have to order and ship in US, not sure about Canada.

Heres a pic I took recently for someone, HQ14, HQ21 ridgeless (my fave basket), VST 20 on bottom. Didn't throw in IMS or others.

alexanders5700 (original poster)
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#15: Post by alexanders5700 (original poster) »

Nice!!

Could you let me know your recipe for dark roast (g in, g out, time, temp)? Just something to shoot for...
(I know some people recommend pulling shots short (ie 20g in, but only 30g out, in like 22 seconds, so that the shot isn't too bitter)

Maybe also which DR you are using?

alexanders5700 (original poster)
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#16: Post by alexanders5700 (original poster) »

Nice basket shots!
I do see that your non-VST have less holes, and if smaller as well, then yah the VST would pull fast in comparison!

When I picked up my Pro 700, the previous owner said it could use a new basket, so instead of buying a 20$ job, I got the VST 40$ job... Oh well, 20$ extra $ lost I suppose.

I think I will combine your, and cafeIKE's advise, and get a non-VST triple basket, to experiment with!

:)

alexanders5700 (original poster)
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#17: Post by alexanders5700 (original poster) »

Oh, and for dark roasts, I presume the Lavazza (as they are also grocery store brands) are also just as bad/stale?

Finally, and not sure if you've got them in the US, any thoughts on the brand Kicking Horse?

(I will of course be looking for local fresh beans, but sometimes you know, you get lazy... And if I'm going for dark roast, not sure absolutely top notch quality matters "as much" compared to a lighter roast (as lighter roasts you taste all the complexities of the bean, as opposed to dark roasts, where you taste the roast. I'll try to find a roast between medium and dark, like saying you want a (yuck) medium-well steak... It's not medium, but it's not well done either...)

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Jeff
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#18: Post by Jeff »

From what I have heard, Lavassa's more premium blends can be great on the first day the bag is open. The best of the Italian roasters know their craft well and target their blend and roast to them. One of the challenges is that home baristas don't go through 1-10 kg a day and later days may not be anywhere near as good as the first.

I find that the EPNW 14 ridgeless (doses like an 18) is a reasonably forgiving, "precision" basket. I also concur that the VST baskets can be very challenging to use well, even for an experienced barista.

"Roasting ain't easy" -- going dark well without bringing in too much charred, ashy, or other unpleasant bitterness is a non-trivial thing. I think a quality dark roast is as hard to find on the market as a quality light roast. If anything, finding a dark might be harder, as there are a handful of known and generally good light-roast roasters. Freshness may be more important for darker roasts than the lightest of roasts. Some of the Nordic-style roasters suggest not opening the bag for three weeks or more. Some dark roasts can peak and fade within two weeks. The hypothesis I've heard on this is that the darker roasts break down the cellular structure more, allowing faster exchange of gasses and "stuff" as compared to light roasts.

cmin
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#19: Post by cmin »

Jeff wrote:
I find that the EPNW 14 ridgeless (doses like an 18) is a reasonably forgiving, "precision" basket.

I think a quality dark roast is as hard to find on the market as a quality light roast.
Yeah EPNW baskets for the win! Literally still use an HQ21 from fricken 2012 daily still lol. Even over IMS and other baskets of mine.

For darker roast, recommended to others and they've loved it as well. Chromatics Opus. They have it so dialed in, even told me they lazer analyze it durring and post roast. Puah it as far as possible w/o going oily etc. Was the 1st dark roast all these years where I was like damn that's good. They always just taste, like, the same/generic to me. That's the only one that stands out. None of that ashy or bitter like notes that 99% of others have. Tasting notes are spot on, straight chocolate and brown sugar.

https://www.chromaticcoffee.com/amp/opus-dark-roast/

alexanders5700 (original poster)
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#20: Post by alexanders5700 (original poster) »

I'll go head and purchase an EPNW basket tonight! Thanks!